Discussion Forum - Northstar Chevelle Club

Yes it is!

Oh... Welcome to the Forum!!

It's not just the housing extension, the steel mutha output shaft is different. The trans would have to be dis-assembled and the shaft changed to 2wd, and a new housing procured. Pass on this one.

You are correct on the "bolt-in-ness" of the gearbox. It will physically replace the 350, and usually a love-tap or two with a mallet will take car of any tunnel clearance issues. Most guys just drill 4 new holes in the framerail ears for the crossmember mounting, and you'll need to shorten the E-brake cable "J" hook a few inches. The converter should bolt right up.

Driveshaft is a slip-fit, no mods necessary. The 1/16" difference isn't an issue (there's probably that much variance in mfg's error car to car).

Welcome to the forum Steven!  Sounds like you are a little younger than most of the members, but that's cool.  We need more younger folks to keep the interest in one of the coolest cars Chevy built in the 60's and 70's. 

Check out Tom (Gearlube forum name) posts in this section on his 383 and 7004R trans swap.  He is going through exactly what you are researching.  His current post is titled 'First Day of my Chevelle assembly), and he should be updating again soon.  He did mention that the driveshaft needed to be shortened, so that IS part of the swap. 

There are pros and cons to both the 2004R and 7004R swaps.  If you search this forum you find a few posts where I installed a 2004R for the following reasons:

-Found a core for $125 in WI, but had to take Dashboard (Kevin) with me for his Naval combat training as it was at a crack house and those guys were wacky!

-The 2004R is a near match in length for the TH350 so it was basically a drop in with the same driveshaft.  I moved the cross member to the rear most holes, and it worked out great

-The 2004R has a higher 1st gear, and the gear spacing is closer than a 7004R, so able to use the power band of the engine more effectively.  It also has a slightly deeper overdrive gear of 0.67 vs. 0.73 if I remember right.

-I had Master Trans in Rosemount rebuild the core and it ran $1500 including the torque converter.  John there did a great job and made sure it matched up to the big block in front of it.  Tom had his 7004R also built by Master Trans

The 7004R is a good trans, and I'm not bashing it, so lot's to think about.  I suggest calling John at Master Transmission in Rosemount and talking it over with him.  He'll give you the straight scoop, and won't try to sell you something you don't need. 

Otherwise, have fun with the project, and hope to meet you Saturday!

Stan

 

Hey welcome! I will have lots of photos to upload and share on my other post tomorrow. But I can cover my experience on the tranny. I had a th350 in mine. I switched to the 700r4 that I had built. I looked around for a while for a used one, but just had issues because newer trans need a lot of mods to make them work with a mechanical speedo for instance. It installs just like any other trans. I had to move the cross member back a few inches and re-drill new holes of the frame rails. Used the same bolts and trans mount.

I have a 12 bolt rear end and the drive shaft is 3 1/8th to long. I had my drive shaft done at proven force. It cost $121 to have it shortened and balanced with new u-joints front and back. They gave me a yoke to be able to take final measurements. You put in the yoke. Shove it all the way in and then pull it out 1 inch. Then you measure from the half way point on the yoke end circles to the front caps on the rear end. For me it was exactly 52". Then I emailed them that and they completed it. They turned it around in 24 hours too!

As far as the shifter I bought the 3 speed to 4 speed kit from http://www.shiftworks.com/chevelle-68-72.htm it includes everything you need. I also bought their shift cable from them too. Total cost was $164

As for the TV cable John from Master Trans suggested the Bowtie kit that is self. Adjustable. Here is the link. Includes the cable and all the hardware for the carb. http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog.php?Action=GETSUBCAT&CATID=WA3A3A1
Kit is $129

Hope this helps. One thing I have learned over many cars. Get the right tools and parts for the job. Don't skimp on the trans and don't order a trans from one of the Internet companies. I think I paid $1100 for my 700R4 and he provided the core.

I live in Farmington and if you want to come out and check it out, come on over beer is cold.

Hey gearlube, what made you decide on the 700r4 over the 200r4? I am curious because right now I have a 283, but am planning on building a 383 with roughly 400hp (this is once I get out of college and have what everyone else calls a steady income).

gearlube wrote:

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 John from Master Trans is awesome. And he does not charge for advice. I would give him a call. He is a true car guy first! You learn a lot from advice...

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 I'll second that !!! he tried to talk me out of the hardened parts because my engine is almost stock right now but I wanted it built to handle anything I would throw in later. Cost me more but I don't have to backtrack if/when I put big power in it.

http://mastertransmission.com/

-- Edited by Lost in the 60s on Monday 13th of May 2013 08:59:26 AM

I had a 700r4 before the LS1 swap. They say the gear split on the 200 is better, but if you don't have a lot of power now you might like the low first gear of the 700. It made my tired 350 feel like I gained 100 horse. A couple other things to check, try to get a 1987 or newer 700, they have upgraded internals. And, watch for the speedo output, later ones had electronic speedometers. They can be converted to cable, but it's an added expense.

I'll play the other side....

I have a 400hp, 350 with 4.10s and I run a 700R4. 28" tall tire. Mine was originally built by a shop and ran quite well for the 10 years or so I drove it until I decided I needed a shift kit. I had Randy at Affordable Transmission in Brooklyn park do the install and I am quite happy with it. He also can do performance rebuilds and is a drag racer himself. The 700s have some issues, but are good without any serious upgrading to the 475hp-ish area. The 700s did go through a slight change, with the later era one being more desireable (spline count, stronger internals) but like anything still needs a performance rebuild to do the job well (Vette servo, clutches, new band, etc).

Tim that is a dirty word here man!!!

You guys are old farts!!! But we wouldn't trade any of ya!!!!

Speaking of farts.......ahhhhhhhhhhh

 

oh ya...in that picture above kind of looks like Stan maybe?? 

-- Edited by gearlube on Monday 13th of May 2013 10:21:59 PM

With the lower gear in the 700 and 3.73 in the rear, the trans will go thru 1st in about 60 ft. It's not all bad but the low ratio in 1st is kind of wasted. It is designed for a much taller rear ratio.

As far as strength, the 200 can be built for 450~475 hp/torque dependably. When the engine starts pushing the 500 range or above, the 700 is a better choice. You can change the rear gears down for better use of 1st in the trans but, of course, that adds more expense to the build.

 

NOW, quit thinking about transmissions until AFTER finals.....  you have plenty of time ahead of you to plan a build, padwan...

I can only hope to aspire to the wisdom of you old farts some day.

cooz65 wrote:

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First off, let me start by saying thank you to everyone who has responded and helped me out. I really do appreciate it because without you "old" guys I would never learn as much as I have. Hopefully sometime this week I can give John a call, but it's finals week here at school and I'm doing the best I can to try and study. Here is a good article I found comparing the two http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=426&SID=6 Throughout the article they talk about how much stronger the 700 is, but it got me thinking, so many people are running the 200 they can't be that bad of a transmission when rebuilt.

-Bowtie - A fancy RPM calculator says that with your set up your spinning about 2200rpm at 65mph, Sound reasonable? The only reason I ask is that between the 200 with .67 OD and the 700 with .7 OD there is only about 100 rpm difference, which really wouldn't be noticeable. Just trying to get a feel for these two beasts. That's correct. Their final drive is about the same, and it rolls well in 4th. Keep in mind your converter lockup, which is another aspect of converting some people forget about.

-Lost in the 60's - You recommend the the 200 because I have a pretty low rear end. Is this for the benefit of overdrive or the gear from 1st to 2nd being so steep in the 700. This does worry me a little bit, but for the street it really shouldn't be a problem. What tire size are you running? A taller tire will help negate some of that 1st gear on the 700 (and essentially give you more tire contact for traction)

-gearlube - Looking through your thread and it looks awesome! A lot of what I would like to do someday

Thanks again guys
Steven

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 also, re-reading your original post I saw you mentioned a truck vs car 700R4. I have a truck one in my car. Yes, you need to add the extension piece, then just get a yoke to match the output shaft. Simple deal, especially if your driveshaft needs to be shortened, they gotta cut an end off and anyway and re-balance it with new u-joints, swap in the new yoke.

Steven, a word of 'wisdom'... there were 2 different 200 transmissions.  There is the standard 3 speed 200C version, and the 2004R that is the overdrive version.  Don't ask me how I know other than I donated some aluminum to Master Trans' scrap pile after my first attempt at buying a 2004R... 

-- Edited by SShink on Wednesday 15th of May 2013 08:27:42 PM

Don't bang your head yet, you haven't even gotten to speedometer correction yet.

(I have some coil springs that would give you more than enough room for a taller tire....)

I had a B&M kit in mine when it was carbureted, used a Sonnax TV cable arm at the carb. (I might have a spare TV cable still too), we used a brake light switch that was for a cruise control car to drop the lockup on the converter when the brakes were applied. Mine is all now computer controlled.

Keep asking stuff. We all have our experiences (some of us younger guys have less :) ) but we're all willing to help!

cooz65 wrote:

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Day off without any finals, and so that means time to relax and do some homework on things I actually enjoy!

Sorry about calling you guys "old" how does the phrase experienced sound? You have all "experienced" much more than I have in your "olden" days. Anyways....car talk! 

You guys were right, John is an awesome guy who gave me some things to think about as well. 

-The biggest thing that he said I could run into troubles with is the fact that the lil 283 has no low end torque/power (I would agree with him, my 283 feels even weaker than it but that's another problem) and so when it would drop to 4th, dropping the rpms down to 2000ish at 65, the engine might lug, and chug, and just not be happy. Once the 383 is built, none of this becomes an issue.

-If the case, would I really see any noticeable mpg increase (gas just keeps going up!), but bringing the rpm's down 1000 would sure make for a nicer ride. 

-John also mentioned that he converts a lot of 200 and 700's over to nonlock up converters.....another thing to think about and another potential cost

-What kits are you guys running for the converter lock up? It sounds like there are a couple of different methods to go about this. 

              -And how hard are these lockup kits to install? 

-Bowtie, I have 205/75/15, so about 27inches tall and without some tubbing, nothing much bigger is going to fit as much as I wish it would

Just found a 200r4 off of C.L. for $175, out of a 87 monte carlo ss, says in good working order, torque convert included- Caught my interest

Also Bowtieman427 has a 700 he would sell me and so now I have some options....and decisions as I continue to bang my head against the wall with all of this

 

 

 

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 At that price, I doubt you will have much time to think about it. If I was in the market, it would be sold. I paid $165 for a rebuildable core and the 87 SS will have some of the good stuff already in it.

The 200 is an easier install and in 87 it still has a cable for the speedo. All you would need extra is the mount for the TV cable at the carb. Don't be concerned about the converter locking for now. As John said, it may drop the rpm too much for your current engine.

If the seller is in doubt, you definitly want the tag number to know what it came from. Do you have the list of tag ID's ??

Ya on the lock-up, it sounded like there is a clutch inside the converter that makes it a true 1:1, otherwise with a conventional converter there is about 300rpm of slipeage that takes place. And it also sounded like you really only use the lockup when cruising on the freeway, and if you don't use the lockup it can burn up the transmission quicker. So true I won't need it right away, but before I would do a whole lot of driving on the freeway I would need it. I think I'm starting to understand all of this lock-up talk....

Once I get the pictures and the numbers I was just going to do a simple google search to see what I can find. Do you have a good go to place for the ID's?

As for the speedometer gears, I haven't started to worry about that... I don't even know where to start because my current speedo doesn't always work, if it does work the needle bounces, and even at that, the speed isn't accurate at all. I just use the gps on my phone, the tach, or what feels like the right speed. I'm assuming the previous owner never made the proper adjustments once it went from the powerglide the 350.

Cooz,

I too am a believer in Monster Transmission. I recently converted from a T400 to a 200-R4 in my '69. I have 450+HP in front of the 200 and am not concerned. John at MT said he has 600+HP cars with 200's in them and they hold up. I was told that the 700 is stronger from the factory but the 200 can be "built" stronger. Believe what you will. I went with the 200 as I liked the gear ratios. I don't need the deep first gear of the 700 for my use of the car. I can still roll the tires as long as I want off the line with the 200.

My advice is pick what you want and go for that build. It will cost a whole lot more down the line to do a second tranny.

As far as the "old guys" comment, those that deserve the remark here are either thick skinned enough to take it or they have no memory and forget what you said soon after anyway.

Good luck with your build.

Lost in the 60s wrote:

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Jon H wrote:

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they have no memory and forget what you said soon after anyway.

Good luck with your build.

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 Who are you ??

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 Who's asking?   

Here is what he sent me.....

"The code on the aluminum and yellow tag is CZF The part# ID # on the tag is :240-871CZF0156"

from what i can tell, the 871 stands for built in 87 on first shift....CZ = Monte Carlo SS H/O.....F=200r4........and 0156 is the production number

for $175 can I go wrong with this? even if the guy is lying to me and the internals are shot and I don't end up using it....I should have no problem reselling it at $175 even as a core? but either way unless one of you "seasoned" vets start screaming saying this is a bad deal... I'm doing it!!!

 

The deal has been done! Well almost. The guy lives in Annandale, MN and so on Sunday, when I am moving to Eden Valley (by St. Cloud), I am going to stop by, take a look, and hand over the dough. He was nice enough to hold onto it for me until Sunday so I don't have to make an extra trip out there. 

 

Alright now to understand the TV cable. Currently I am running a q-jet on my 283, (i have a holley street avenger 570, but the engine has never liked it, even after rebuilding it)

                           -http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog.php?Action=GETSUBCAT&CATID=WA3A44

                           -it looks like these kits are specific the the carb you are running, for geometry sake, so if I order one for a q-jet, that will be the carb choice for a while then, correct? 

                           -are you guys experienced in tuning these things. They sound pretty simple to set up, but if done incorrectly can burn up a transmission pretty quickly

 

Lock up kit

                        -http://www.700r4.com/tech/tcc/relay_install/diagram.shtml

                        -http://bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog_inc/viewitem.php?ITEMID=336

                        -again sounds pretty simple, plug and play

I have heard some guys talk about a spring that needs to be replaced in the valve body? Something about the TV spring, or something?

Also I know I will want to replace the filter, and so a new gasket.

Am I missing anything else? (besides the speedo gears, with the current set-up I have now I know what gears I need, but who knows if all of that is going to stay the same, am I ok not even running a cable to it) I'm just trying to make sure all my ducks are in a row before really diving in. It's always a goal, probably won't happen, but I would like for there to be as little down time as possible so I can keep driving this summer.

Thanks guys

 

 

Well I'm all moved in and I have to say living on a lake this summer is going to be awesome! On my way up to Eden Valley I picked up the tranny!  Everything looks good! Now to start the install.

Before the transmission even goes in what should be done to it? I will be draining the fluid, replacing the gasket, and replace the rear seal.

It sounds like there is a rear bushing, should this be done as well? 

What else am I overlooking internally that should be done before I even start this adventure?

Lock up: I've decided to continue to use the lock-up. For budget purposes, this will save me some money up-front, until a rebuild is in her future then I can decide then. 

Tv Kit: Once I find out what model Q-jet I'm running, I'll order up that TV cable kit.

Speedo-not even going to worry about it right now, I know this sounds bad, but who knows if tire sizes, rear end, etc will be replaced in the future and it throws it all off anyways. 

Torque Converter bolts-I'll have to order these as well

Shift-kit- Should I even bother with one right now? It may already have one as it sounded like the GN and Monte Carlo SS came with one from the factory? 

Shifter-Going to call B&M tomorrow and see if they sell the individual plate to make my B&M Sport Shifter that is currently set up for a 3 speed work with overdrive. On summit racing, it says this shifter is compatible with the 200r4, I just have to figure out how. 

I know I have a lot of questions, just trying to make sure all my ducks are in a row!  It was good getting to meet some of you guys on saturday! Awesome club! 

If your looking for a cheap engine upgrade. Found this just now while browsing. I dont know the seller but might be able to check it out if you decide to pursue it further.

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/pts/3809412190.html

Alright guys, I'm on the move again!!! I need some help and advice before I go ahead and purchase anything. My first question is involving the TV Cable kits. I've done some looking and can't decided between the TV made EZ kit and the TCI auto kit.

Here is the tvmadeez kit

http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog_inc/viewitem.php?ITEMID=221

with instructions 

http://www.tvmadeez.com/1905_cam/

here is my problem with the kit, I already have a 3/4" base plate under my carb, and the transmission I bought came with the a TV Cable so how do I pay $130 for a couple of brackets?

 

SO then I called TCI auto and here are the two parts that he said I would need

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tci-376710/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tci-376700

for a grand total of $60, I had read a couple of people who had used the TCI stuff and never had any problems with them so why is the TVMADEEZ kit so expensive? is it really worth that much more? or does anyone have any other tv kit ideas that would work? 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My other question involves the torque converter lock up kits.

Here are a couple of different versions....

Speedo Cable

http://bmracing.com/?wpsc-product=converter-lockup-control-for-gm-automatic-trans-wlockup-converter-mechanical-speedometer

a vacuum line

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tci-376600

and a brake line (which looks the simplest plug and play)

http://bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog_inc/viewitem.php?ITEMID=336

is there a preference between these 3 kits, I know different members have used different kits, just trying to get a good understanding for the easiest kit.

Also just thought I would throw this out there, if anyone has any left over parts that are no longer in service and would like to get them out of your garage, let me know, I'd love to pay you to help clean out your garage.

 

Thanks Guys! 

Parts have been PURCHASED!!! wahooooo!!!! and according to fedex tracker everything has arrived safely at home!!

Thanks guys for all the help and advice! I went ahead and bought a wiring kit from bowtie overdrives and if I add in a toggle switch, so that I can manually turn on and off the t.c. especially in town when it wants to go into overdrive, is this the correct place to put it?