Discussion Forum - Northstar Chevelle Club

dashboard · 2K+ Club

WTB

Tim H · Mega Poster

I think I have an extra set of rear lower control arms bot they are nox boxed. I'll look in the morning and let you know.

Getting a new rearend or just setting it up with a swaybar?

dashboard · 2K+ Club

Just a sway bar for now but might be looking for a 12 bolt this winter. Still in the learning curve with this Buick project and not real sure of what direction to go in.

Under the sheet metal it looks like any 64-67 A body I guess. For sure front disc this winter and maybe pull the body off the frame.

Lost in the 60s · President

dashboard wrote:
Just a sway bar for now but might be looking for a 12 bolt this winter. Still in the learning curve with this Buick project and not real sure of what direction to go in.

Under the sheet metal it looks like any 64-67 A body I guess. For sure front disc this winter and maybe pull the body off the frame.

If it wallows in the corners, a bigger front bar will help more than a rear. I have rear arms that would need boxed for a bar.
A mid-seventies 8.5 10 bolt will handle most any larger engine you are considering and cost less while being easier to find.

dashboard · 2K+ Club

Good point on the 10 bolt; I’d just hate to install the ten bolt and then have to install a 12 bolt latter. So a ten bolt might be sufficient but a 12 bolt would cover all "future" options.

I installed a 1.25 fwd sway bar in the Elky but really liked the improvement adding the aft one made.

OscarZ · Mega Poster

Kevin I have a set of upper and lower control arms off of a 64 El Camino that you can have.

dashboard · 2K+ Club

Ok hot dog expect a phone con.

Bowtieman427 · Active Member

I am 99% sure I have a rear sway bar off a 12 bolt rear off the 72. I took it off to when I did the rear end change. If you still need one let me know and I will round it up.

-- Edited by Bowtieman427 on Saturday 23rd of June 2012 04:31:07 PM

SShink · 3K+ Club

Bowtieman427 wrote:
I am 99% sure I have a rear sway bar off a 12 bolt rear off the 72. I took it off to when I did the rear end change. If you still need one let me know and I will round it up.

-- Edited by Bowtieman427 on Saturday 23rd of June 2012 04:31:07 PM

Jim, if Kevin doesn't want it, I'll buy it from you. The vert needs some firming up in the rear end.

Tim H · Mega Poster

Kevin

I have a set of the lower control arms but they are not in real good shape.

67ss · 1K+ Club

Kevin the rear end from this car will fit yours and is just as strong as a 12 bolt but cheaper. I am building one for my 66.

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/pts/3073422214.html

dashboard · 2K+ Club

Bowtieman427 wrote:
I am 99% sure I have a rear sway bar off a 12 bolt rear off the 72. I took it off to when I did the rear end change. If you still need one let me know and I will round it up.

-- Edited by Bowtieman427 on Saturday 23rd of June 2012 04:31:07 PM

Jim, I’ll take it when you have time to dig it out. Let me know; I’ll buy you lunch.

Stopped by the Pine Island show tonight on the way back from Derek’s.

Bowtieman427 · Active Member

We just missed you. I went to the show before goig to Derecks. I bet we passed each other : (

jim larson · 2K+ Club

68-72 rear axles are about 1" wider than the 64-67 rear axles. Even though the 68-72 will fit, I am told that the location of the upper control arm ear is a little different, off by about 3/8". This will also affect options regarding rear wheel offset and size.

If your interested, there was a 65 12 bolt located around Winona and a 65 12 bolt located around Anandale. Around $850 and $1000 respectively and needing a rebuild and both were non-posi.

Rebuilt 65-67 12 bolts run around $800 more than the 68-72 edition.

Seems guys on TC don't worry to much about a 10 bolt, unless Angie is looking at 500hp or more. Probably can get a good 10 bolt core for around $100.

-- Edited by jim larson on Sunday 24th of June 2012 07:18:02 PM

-- Edited by jim larson on Sunday 24th of June 2012 07:19:04 PM

Chris R · 2K+ Club

Gary Heddon of Magnum Superchargers had a rebuilt 12 bolt Chevelle posi at the swap meet today for 1200 bucks. Thats a steal IMO. Most of us remember Gary as hosting a meeting back in the early days when John E. had his engine assembled there and Gary basically did a tech demo on that gig.

Lost in the 60s · President

jim larson wrote:
68-72 rear axles are about 1" wider than the 64-67 rear axles. Even though the 68-72 will fit, I am told that the location of the upper control arm ear is a little different, off by about 3/8". This will also affect options regarding rear wheel offset and size.
If your interested, there was a 65 12 bolt located around Winona and a 65 12 bolt located around Anandale. Around $850 and $1000 respectively and needing a rebuild and both were non-posi.
Rebuilt 65-67 12 bolts run around $800 more than the 68-72 edition.
Seems guys on TC don't worry to much about a 10 bolt, unless Angie is looking at 500hp or more. Probably can get a good 10 bolt core for around $100.

-- Edited by jim larson on Sunday 24th of June 2012 07:18:02 PM

-- Edited by jim larson on Sunday 24th of June 2012 07:19:04 PM
Jim, I have a '70 12 bolt in my '66. The ears are in the same location. You need to trim 3/8 inch off the left upper arm to clear the larger housing on the 12 bolt. From the factory, the arm was trimmed and had a reinforcement washer spot welded on.
I have a '70 Buick 8.5 10 bolt in the GTO and it's about an inch longer than a 8.2 10 bolt or 12 bolts. The driveshaft has to be shortened for the 8.5 install.
A corporate 8.5 10 bolt is what you find under many GM street rods now.
Chris, $1200 is an average cost. I paid $800 for the '70 12 bolt I put under my '66. All rebuilt with original GM hard parts. 3.31 posi.
I was thinking hard about the 427 Gary had on his trailer though......

67ss · 1K+ Club

From the research I did the 8.5 corporate only came in 71-72 buick skylark and olds cutlass. Yes it does require the drivshaft to be shortened. The bonus is that any gears and posi's from newer vehicles will bolt right in. So finding used parts for them is really easy and cheap.

The 8.5 has the same pinion diameter as a 12 bolt just a slightly smaller ring gear. They can be upgraded to 30 spline axles like a 12 bolt if desired.

Just some info for anybody that cares.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

Lost in the 60s wrote:
Chris, $1200 is an average cost. I paid $800 for the '70 12 bolt I put under my '66. All rebuilt with original GM hard parts. 3.31 posi.
I was thinking hard about the 427 Gary had on his trailer though......

That depends on your preception. Its no secret a good 12 bolt posi is 800 to a grand these days. Getting one thats completely rebuilt by a reputable shop and only have to spend a few hundred bucks more, plus the fact that it includes a hard to find ratio of 3:31. I would have grabbed it in a second if I needed it.

Gary always has something cool at these swaps when I see him.

dashboard · 2K+ Club

I’m learning so much here I’d like to move the technical discussion to Projects.

Bowtieman427 · Active Member

sold a 12 bolt 4.56 Posi with ultimate cover and braces for $900.00 for 70-72 Chevelle and was not rebuilt. When I was looking at aftermarket 12 bollt Moser, Strange, Carrie were much higher then $800-1200. They were more like $2000.00 . I went with a Dana S60, because of cost to upgrade what I already had, plus all my time and effort to do it to handle my power level to me was a wash. There is a guy in IA that does rearends and may have some for sale. I can look up his info if you need it. I was going to work with him on getting a Posi rear end for my 67 Impala. If you find a 12 bolt 3.31 posi completely rebuilt with quality parts for 800-1200 that is a very great deal. I like your thinking on 3.31 for a cruiser. Our 59 is a 3.36 and it is great all the way around no OD. if going OD may want something a little deeper

jim larson · 2K+ Club

Mitch, I am aware of the reinforcement washer on the drivers side upper control arm. Lots of information on TC and from the Lever Family site regarding upper and lower control arms.

I got the 3/8" information off of TC; but maybe that was in regard to another location than the ears of the carrier housing. Maybe it was the lower control arms. I know the 68 and up cars had a different frame, wider I think, and that supposedly resulted in a change in the location of the control arms and the longer rear axle. Its kind of a mute point and the later rear will fit.

The earlier rears are also more difficult to set up as they used a single shim on each side of the carrier as opposed to the super shims available for the later rears. Seems Tom Lowe and Big Gear Head are the experts on TC regarding the 12 bolts and their differences.

jim larson · 2K+ Club

Well that 3/8" think bugged me, so I went looking. Found the information here is post #13

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156981&highlight=12+bolt

Derek is even quoted in the article and he talks about the pinion angle. Also supported by Dale McIntosch from an article in the a 1998 car craft article.

-- Edited by jim larson on Monday 25th of June 2012 05:11:58 PM

SShink · 3K+ Club

dashboard wrote:
I’m learning so much here I’d like to move the technical discussion to Projects.

Moved to Projects.

Tim H · Mega Poster

I have a spare 10 bolt from a Skylark if you want one. It will be availble in a month or so.

Ya ya Stan I know I have too many parts laying around

-- Edited by Tim H on Monday 25th of June 2012 09:58:02 PM

Lost in the 60s · President

Yep, Pontiac had the same thing and now it makes sense what you were talking about the electric solenoid....

I believe your article insert is wrong. I've seen afew of these in original Pontiacs from 64-66 and they had the solenoid and were called variable pitch super turbine 300.

-- Edited by Lost in the 60s on Monday 25th of June 2012 10:02:27 PM

Tim H · Mega Poster

Lost in the 60s wrote:

I was thinking hard about the 427 Gary had on his trailer though......

427

dashboard · 2K+ Club

Learning more and more about this Buick as time goes by. I thought it had a Powerglide transmission but that’s not the case. It has mounted behind the non-powerful Fireball V6 a Super Turbine 300 Automatic Transmission.

Until tonight I had never heard of such a thing. I went to a small car thing at the local Culvers to night and the guy that parked next to me had a 64 Buick Skylark and he knows Buicks. Any one ever heard of or worked on one? Here’s a little blrb of the net.

It was programmed to start in low gear, providing a gear ratio of 1.765:1 plus the additional low-speed multiplication of the torque converter. The shift pattern was Park-Reverse-Neutral-Drive-Low. In Drive at full throttle, it would upshift from low gear to high gear at 60–65 mph (97–105 km/h).

From 1964-1967, Buick and Oldsmobile versions of this transmission used a torque converter with a variable-pitch stator called Switch-Pitch by Buick and Variable Vane by Olds. The stator blades moved from high to low position by an electrical solenoid and a stator valve, controlled by a switch on the throttle linkage. At light to medium throttle, the stator blades were at 32°, providing a torque multiplication of 1.8:1 and a converter stall speed of approximately 1800 rpm. At ⅔ to full throttle, the blades switched to the 51° high position, giving torque multiplication of 2.45:1 and a stall speed of approximately 2300 rpm. The blades were also set to the high position at idle to limit creep when stopped in Drive. The variable-pitch stator was eliminated after 1967. This feature was not used on the Pontiac versions of this transmission.

John D · 2K+ Club

Ding Ding... light bulb went off... Wierd Buick stuff.
A Chicago buddy of mine was heavy into old Riviera's, and one of his '65 GS's had a "Switch Pitch" converter in it. I didn't know they came in the A-body stuff.

dashboard · 2K+ Club

I don’t think mine is working correctly; might be a trip to Master Transmission in the near future. Had three dye hard Buick guys trying to figure out that small micro switch on the back of the linkage. It looks to be wired in series with a throttle position sensor.

John D · 2K+ Club

Punch "Buick Switch Pitch Converter" into google

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Turbine_300

dashboard · 2K+ Club

Read all that and several shop manuals spread all over my trunk tonight They don’t show the micro switch.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

Wierd Buick stuff = Impossible to find parts for. Thats what makes these so cool to see around at shows and stuff. Its the type of stuff you just dont see every day.

Derek69SS · Founding Member

I didn't know they had switch-pitch stuff that early. I knew some of the big cars had them in TH400s in the 70s, but that's all I had ever heard about with it...

Lost in the 60s · President

The micro switch may be something added later ?? The only switch I've seen with these looks just like the kickdown switch on a TH400 and is mounted in the car so the throttle rod depresses it during full throttle.

I don't know if "micro" switches had been invented by 1965....

dashboard · 2K+ Club

The below pix shows three electrical or mechanical throttle and transmission control or assist devices. The forward one is the mechanical throttle rapid close dampener it acts to prevent the engine from flaming out when the throttle is closed from a high rpm.

The larger gray one is what I believe is a throttle position sensor. The one that I am pointing to with the green pointer is the mystery switch; I am calling it a micro switch, it is at least visually wired in series with the other switch.

Mitch the Micro switch was invented in 1932.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

Im not sure if my brothers 65 has any of that stuff. I dont remember anything like this on it.

dashboard · 2K+ Club

Chris, there is no mechanical linkage between carburetor or accelerator peddle to the transmission. This may have been a V6 setup.

John D · 2K+ Club

I'd really like to get my hands on this with some diagnostic equipment, and figure out the circuit! It's gotta be some combination of "series/parallel/pre-cpu/if/and/or" switching logic circuit to have the trans make up for the lack of snoose the V6 can provide.

The pics indicate it was either VERY professionally done, a GM service recall/add, or that way off the line. Interesting....

dashboard · 2K+ Club

It has me intrigued as well John. I studied the electrical diagram two nights ago trying to understand how it works and read what I could on the net.

Today we took a cruise through western Wisconsin, the old Fireball V6 was really struggling to make it up some of the hills. Jon H had the lead until we stopped for lunch, after lunch we took the lead. After a short distance Jon pulled along side and told me the brake lights where on.

Ding, Ding, Bright light Flashing it all started to make since . The Super Turbine 300 is wired through the brake switch, designed for the blades to go flat when the car is stopped in gear to help avoid creping forward.

I pulled the brake peddle aft with my left foot and on the next hill, up the hill it went with no effort. It was like adding a new gear or a couple extra cylinders. Not a race car understand, Jon was still able to keep up with his BBC but a lot more torque was available.

Now I understand why the brake lights don’t work with the ignition off.

SShink · 3K+ Club

So... the brake pedal is activating the switch pitch on the convertor all the time acting like the brakes are on all the time? Is there an adjustment for the switch on the brake pedal, or is that the micro switch in the engine bay that needs adjusted?

dashboard · 2K+ Club

Well, I think yes, maybe kind of sort-a; both sw are adjustable.

I think the sw on the throttle linkage and the sw at the brake pedal work together to support different modes of operation using the throttle position sensor as the controller. What I have not seen yet is a diagram of the inside of the inside of the transmission; I would think a solenoid or two in the trans would be used to route fluid for different modes of operation.

I can say when it worked yesterday going up those hills it was unlike any transmission I’ve driven before.

SShink · 3K+ Club

Who knew Buick had a TPS in '65?

I thought that happened when electronics started showing up on engines to let the ECU know where the throttle position was...

John D · 2K+ Club

Makes total sense now... kinda like the circuit on a trans with a lockup converter having a brake feed to tell it to unlock while stopping.

The brake light switch should be in a spring steel springy sleeve - and kinda auto-adjusting.

Contort yourself under the dash, and find the brakelight switch. (It's a plunger thingie that bears against the arm of the pedal)
Press down on the brakes. (moving the arm off the switch)
Push the switch down (through it's holder) against the arm again
Let the pedal "snap" back to the at-rest position (shoving the switch as well, and adjusting it at the same time)

Be aware that sometimes the plastic "threads" on the switch are worn, and the spring-steel sleeve won't "grab" and hold it. If so, a wrap of tape, or a mini hose clamp will hold it.