Discussion Forum - Northstar Chevelle Club

Enganeer · Mega Poster

RE: 1970 El Camino LS1 /T56 conversion log

bowtie · Secretary

You can try this company too. Found them doing some LS engine research.

http://www.kwikperf.com/lsx_alt_ps.html

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Bryan,

I looked them over and it cost alot more as you also need to get a new power steering pump.

I was planing on using the AC relocation setup though.

http://www.kwikperf.com/lsx_ac.html

bwild70ss396 · Active Member

I used a Kwik Performance kit for my AC mounting. I got it through Pace Performance. I have the truck pan on my motor. It clears the steering no problem, but hangs way low. I am guessing I may have to change to a conversion pan or something similar.

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Cleaned out the interior as I have a mad plan in the works.

I give you El Camaro de Camino.

I saw mock this dash and firewall into a 67 camino from LS1Tech (credit goes to user named elesquan)

I got a front section of a Camino parts car from Jamie and will mock it up with my donor camaro firewall and dash and then transfer that to the Camino.

So things will slow down alot as I play around with the possiblites.

SteveS · Super Poster

I had similar issues with the alternator and steering box. I'm running an under-drive crank pulley & an over-drive alternator pulley. The alt pulley is smaller diameter so it fits next to the steering box. I still had to do a little grinding on the steering box, but it does fit. I'm running the kwik AC brackets as well, expensive for a couple of plates and spacers, but they work nice. I had to have my intake off when I put my motor & trans in to get the right angle for the Autokraft oil pan to clear. I like the dash idea, looks like it's the right width & everything

-- Edited by SteveS on Tuesday 11th of October 2011 06:12:00 AM

Enganeer · Mega Poster

I pulled out the donor El Camino front section (thanks to Jamie for giving me it and Dave Seitz for delivery) and the donor camaro firewall.

Here they are side by side.

Close up of Camaro firewall

Close up of El Camino firewall

Some observations

The firewall are different widths but the dash fit is very close.

Camaro width was 61 inches max while the El Camino was 70 inches max (approx). This is probaly due to the unibody and frame design differences. So I will do all my mocking from the center of the firewall.

The camaro tunnel was also larger (17" vertical versus 14-15" vertical in a quick measurement).

I'll get pics later, I am removing the spot welded material in the way on the camaro firewall.

-- Edited by Enganeer on Wednesday 12th of October 2011 07:13:38 PM

Chris R · 2K+ Club

I would cut off that transmission tunnel off the Camaro section too and use that on the 70. Much easier then trying to hand form a tunnel yourself.

Enganeer · Mega Poster

That's the plan, use as much firewall and floor as I can and blend the two where possible.

I have started mapping out the features for both.

I will have a ton of spot welds to drill out. I bought some spot weld remover bits, so it maybe a week before I have the camaro firewall and dash free from the extra uni-body structures.

Enganeer · Mega Poster

A little more progress today.

I cut away some of the side walls from the camaro front section and reassembled the dash/ hvac on the camaro donor. The dash is sagging down a little on the passenger side without the side support to mount to.

I will start comparing the dash dimension to the inside of the elky but is looks close width and depth wise.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

One thing is for sure. That camaro dash has a lot of real estate thats going to have to be cut off and shortened where it met the original Camaros cowl. Once you shorten it to fit into your 70. That should help with the sagging. Also, im thinking your not planning to use the airbag module under the dash too right? Thats a dead weight right there that once removed, would also help with sagging as well. You can save the cosmetic part for the dash and get rid of the actual module itself.

Before you do your final mock up of that dash into the El Caminos cowl. Make absolute sure the dash is the right angle to the new driver. The Camaro probably had a lower floor pan and left the Camaros seats sit lower into the pan Vs. an A Body floor pan that your seats sit on what is fairly level floor pan. You dont want to mock everything up so its ready to bolt into the El Camino and find once you get the steering column in and seats in. The dash points more at your chest or stomach, or, up too high. When setting up the new dash, make sure to mock it up with whatever steering column your using, whether its the original A body column or the Camaro column.

I wouldnt finish it up permanently using the spare mock up so its ready to bolt it into the El Camino. Get it mocked up and locate your braces so you have a good base line in your mock up cowl. Then, take the dash to the El Camino and get it in place and start looking at your final adjustments and braces. Then you can make final adjustments to locate it. Put the seats your planning to use in as well so it matches the height of the driver. As well as the distance away from the driver as well.

I suppose you could take a tape measure and measure various spots on the dash length to the floor pan and potentially duplicate that in the abody as a base line to where the dash should locate in its new home. At least you have a base line to getting it close to where it should be.

-- Edited by Chris R on Friday 14th of October 2011 03:12:12 PM

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Point taken. They are close.

The camaro has less foot room and the steering column is about an 1" lower. I will be serperating the top of the dash from the firewall portion and raise the dash, so it will be on par with the El Camino.

Depths are close to the firewall but it is hard to judge the camaro firewall as it is not flat like the El Camino, so I strung a line across both front sections lining up with the firewall.

I am mocking up both side by side so I can take some measurement.

I am getting pretty good with saws all with 12 inch blades. Not much scrap from the side walls lost.

-- Edited by Enganeer on Friday 14th of October 2011 07:05:38 PM

Scott Parkhurst · Super Poster

You've officially gone nuts on this project now.

Congrats. It's totally cool and will be killer with that modern dash in it. Now you're committed to cutting edge style throughout. You need 18 inch Forgelines to nail the look, and big 4-wheel discs.

All of this modern stuff would look silly with Rally wheels..

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Scott Parkhurst wrote:
You've officially gone nuts on this project now.

Yes, it is a mad world I live in sometimes.

Some brackets from the El Camino needed to be removed for the dash swap. The camaro dash will require removing the upper mounting brackets on the El Camino near the window pillar on both sides. Here I cut/torn them off (it was late and using a sawall at 10:30 pm makes a hella lot of noise with a loose junk section).

I also removed the upper middle inner support for the el Camino dash. It was easy as it is a few spot weld, so I was able to just flex it back and forth until it popped off.

In reviewing how the dash and hvac system of the camaro work, I found they are very independent of each other save for a duct alignment and some foam cushions. Good thing, because the camaro depth to firewall from dash is 9" and the El camino is alot more ( think it was 11" inches).

The steering column retaining brackets need to be transferred. The camaro dash aligns with the studs and the camino column is the wrong width. I cut the welds off bolt and transferred the camaro brackets loosely until I knew the exact position. The depths are the same at 8" from the top of the mounting area.

Camaro steering column distance to dash mounting

El Camino steering column distance to dash mounting

Camaro steering column stud distance

El Camino steering column stud distance

Steering column of the Camaro cut off.

Camaro Dash mounting points (upper portion)

Trimmed off the camaro dash

Transfer to the El Camino.

After drilling out all the spot welds of some sandwiched material, I trimmed the swapped section with VIN cut out. Later I will smooth out the rough cut. I needed to trim it so the remainder is on the flat of El Camino dash.

I am working out how much the dash is to be as far as angle for being level. There is not a dang straight line in the camaro dash to used as reference for what is level. The El Camino steering wheel was 32" from firewall to edge of steering wheel. The Camaro is at 33" with the column extending about an 1" past the firewall (the camaro firewall juts out further on the drivers side).

-- Edited by Enganeer on Sunday 16th of October 2011 06:24:47 PM

Lost in the 60s · President

None of the pics are opening for me.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

Seems pics loaded from the last day or so are just showing a red X now. When they were working earlier today.

SShink · 3K+ Club

Lost in the 60s wrote:
None of the pics are opening for me.

I'm able to see the pics, but it took awhile to load since the post is picture heavy.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

Now they are working fine again.

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Almost have all the spot welds out save for the a few hidden behind seam sealer.

Enganeer · Mega Poster

At last, 120+ spot welds drilled out later, I have the unibody structure separated from the firewall and floor. Now I can finally fit the other lower portion of the camaro front section to the donor El Camino front section.

Lost in the 60s · President

You have way more patience than me. I'd have been blowing them out with my plasma cutter.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

Why type of spot weld bit did you use John?

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Chris,

I picked them up at Wells Auto. It has spring loaded pin with a circular bit on the outside. You drill a pilot hole and then insert the bit and drill out the weld.

Start of the tunnelotomy

Cutting for El Camino firewall and tunnel to recieve Camaro section

Camaro front section laid over El Camino section

Camaro front section pinned to El Camino fron section.

I have alot of details to work out for the driver side. The gap is large and the camaro steering column location will move it too far into the dash.

Next is to cut out the hvac portion on the El Camino to fit the camaro HVAC setup.

-- Edited by Enganeer on Wednesday 19th of October 2011 09:22:16 PM

SShink · 3K+ Club

Looks good John! The master plan is starting to come together.

John D · 2K+ Club

I like it!

Great plan using genuine OEM "sacrificial" parts, with all the BS cut-away. You can get measurements, make brackets, do whatever, then simply transfer to the "real" parts.

(The only bummer is you'll be doing everything twice!)

The only word of advise I can give here is... when working on the '70 sheetmetal, take your measurements from known/fixed points (like a punched hole or dimple). Resist using a nearby edge. Remember... these parts are pre-CAD/CAM or robot - the edges or weld seams could vary greatly!

-- Edited by John D on Thursday 20th of October 2011 04:26:43 AM

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Advice taken. Your right about having difficult times find true straight edges.

The El Camino has some symmetrical mounting points, there are the rear bolt holes for hinges on the upper firewall and top of cowl has bolt holes for the front fender. Finding the center line was easy. Nothing symmetrical about the Camaro. I was able to find / estimate the center line by measuring the width of the front section, splitting the difference and then marking with a level and still, I could be off a little.

When I placed the Camaro front section onto El Camino section, I lined up the center lines I scribed earlier and then compared the distances between the upper hvac punch horizontal areas on the passenger side to 'square them' to each other.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

Are you planning to swap over the entire firwall section to the El Camino then too John? Or just the area for the transmission tunnel?

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Chris,

I want to use the Camaro interior setup on the inside of the EL Camino.

I am not planning on using the entire Camaro front section but the areas required to make the Camaro interior work...the hvac on the passengers side, tunnel for transmission and possibly the steering, pedal mounts and brake location the driver side. I already had started paring down the Camaro section where needed for the El Camino (I painted the El Camino features white that I want to keep and cut out the camaro sections)

I would like to sandwich the two together as much as possible rather than cut and butt weld or have a small overlap joint as the Camaro sheet metal is thin. But in the end it is going to be one big grafting.

Dave Seitz · Mega Poster

John, if you do it right and it looks like it just goes together with no problems at all then you know it is right. The guys who look at things like that and say "oh that stuff just bolts right on" so I could do that. I know what your going for so keep working on it and it will be done sooner then you expect.

bwild70ss396 · Active Member

Wow you are beeing brave and adventurous! That old clip is a great deal and a smart idea for what you are doing!

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Couple steps back, couple forward.

The hvac setup for camaro mounts from the inside, requiring a large opening. After roughing the camaro hvac mounting into the donor El Camino section I was not happy with the results.

1 - The top and upper passenger side was shoehorned in, requiring cutting, sectioning and bending the inner cowl.

2 - Lower section of the firewall had a large gap

The El camino is a split system with minimal amount of firewall removed - part on the outside, firewall in between and remainder mounted from the inside. I disassembled the camaro hvac and found I can do the same thing. Sorta.

Template of taped up pieces in process for engine compartment.

Template transferred to new sheet.

Checking the fit which allows me to make a sheet metal section for reinforcement.

Comparison between camaro stock opening and the new opening I will use.

Required opening taped to real El Camino for looking at fit.

I also found there are difference between the two firewalls. The donor firewall spacing between the hinge bolts is 49.5" while the 70 is 49". Perhaps difference between 70 and 72 years?

Next issue - dash fit. It was just too high and far away to work with the camaro hvac and steering wheel.

The hvac was not even close to lining up. Plus to get the steering wheel to fit properly required it to be 4" further into El Camino than the original steering wheel.

So I dropped the dash underneath the El camino top section rather than above it, trimmed off some dash plastic so it could be moved further in, bent some of the elky top section up by the vin, removed stock elky side mounting tabs and mounted the dash to the Camaro tunnel bracket.

The mounting points of the camaro not nearly as easy but doable as most only require drilling into the firewall.

-- Edited by Enganeer on Sunday 23rd of October 2011 06:14:52 PM

Lost in the 60s · President

Good thing you're an "Enganeer" so you can figure all this complicated stuff out. I would've thrown the Camaro dash in the weeds by now.
If you move part of the HVAC to the engine compartment, will it fit behind the head ? It looked rather close in the pic, but then I can't tell depth from the pic either.

Enganeer · Mega Poster

I was about ready to chuck it into the weeds.

I'll have about 3/4" clearance with the corner of the head to the outside of the hvac system. So the rear bolt on the corner of passenger side head needs to go. (ground bolt to be relocated or find a shorter bolt)

Still going though and double checking. I need to heat / melt some plastic air ducts and 'reform' them to provide some extra clearancing next to the firewall / cowl in the corners.

After that I need to make a mounting plate for the steering column to firewall.

Mock it all back up again and see what esle may need tweaking.

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Some progress made but man does that cold start to seep into you.

I decided to keep the mods to the actual Elky to a minimum...meaning the firewall and trans tunnel for now. All the dash and steering column mounting points are unmolested. This way, I can always go back.

So I decided to cut the camaro dash / interior metal bracing and steering column in some key spots to fit around the Elky dash / steering mount mount points.

I did find that the camaro dash is offset about 3/4" to the driver side after centering everything around the hardest to work around point in the elky...the steering column mounting point.

The dash extends a little further into the cab than I would like, not sure how much more I can 'push' it all forward..maybe an inch at most since I am working with the elky stock steering column mount. Still it feels ok when I sit inside and grab the steering wheel.

seagrams72 · Active Member

Wow, you are dangerous. Nice work. That 3/4" probably bugs the heck out of you, but you would be surprised how many "new" cars are off center. The only way you notice it is when you measure it.

Enganeer · Mega Poster

The offset did bug me but I can modify the steering column only so much. So I have accepted it and probably won't notice when I make a dash pad to go between the camaro dash and Elky firewall.

I will have some time off at the end of the year for mandatory shut down and the weather does not look super cold, so I hope to have all the mounting points fabricated and firewall/hvac setup done.

Scott Parkhurst · Super Poster

I think it looks awesome. Can't wait to see it all done...it's going to be killer John!

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Made some brackets tonight for the tying the lower dash steel reinforcement to the Elky mounting points . Will work for now but I got to get some real tools.

Need to make a plate to adapt the stock Elky firewall opening to the Camaro steering column plate.

-- Edited by Enganeer on Monday 26th of December 2011 10:52:13 PM

Chris R · 2K+ Club

Is it possible to cut off that plate and put the stock A body plate on there instead. Steering column looks like its in the right area as far as location goes.

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Chris,

I went back and looked it over. The weld was all around but the metal was not thick. 15 minutes of grinding, cutting and swing with a hammer and chisel freed the column from the plate.

The Elky column plate is a split plate and fits around the Camaro column. Mounted it all back up and looks good.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

Enganeer · Mega Poster

In just a little deeper now. After a month of winter, I jumped back in...still trying to warm up.

Pulled the engine / trans out again.

The firewall layout for cutting the camaro HVAC to fit.

After some additional tweaks, the new camaro HVAC sit in place. I still need to do some trimming but it is in! Soon can get going on the tunnel next.

Enganeer · Mega Poster

A burst of motivation today...Cut out the trans tunnel from the camaro firewall and rough fitted the camaro tunnel into the Elky. That was the easy part, the hard part will be making a decent transition between the two.

Lost in the 60s · President

Wow, that tunnel is high and wide. Can you cut it down more ?

Enganeer · Mega Poster

High and wide...that's what you need to swallow the T56 and still have access to the bell housing bolts and hydraulics. I am going to fit so it sits more flush to the floor. From there, I will adjust if needed.

SteveS · Super Poster

Thanks Stan. That bracket looks like a nice alternative to the $287 Kwik Version. Now if they would come up with something for the AC side.

-- Edited by SteveS on Friday 31st of August 2012 10:03:10 AM

SShink · 3K+ Club

John, I took the liberty of adding your recent blog update to your project thread:

Worked a little on the Chevelle and organized my pics of the LS1 alternator relocation setup you can buy at Speedway.

Decided to do my 5K run instead as it was still too hot in the garage. Ran chasing the setting sun to the west and returned with the full moon rising...thinking CCR..bad moon rising and pushed for myself another mile hard. I think I will sleep hard tonight.

Before

No room to move forward as I could not get the belt on or off the pulley easliy.

After. Now I can move the engine forward about 1/2-3/4 for more clearance at the firewall (getting darn close)

__________________

John E - Rogers, MN

Instructions? All I need is the exploded view.
70 El Camino soon to be ls1/t56
64 Malibu SS

SShink · 3K+ Club

Here is the link to the Speedway power steering/alternator drivers side bracket that John installed:

Link Paste

Steve, I didn't see one to relocate the AC compressor.

Speedway appears to be adding quite a few LS conversion parts, as I'm guessing a lot of the street rod crowd are dropping that engine in now instead of the old skool Gen III's.

dashboard · 2K+ Club

Thanks Stan

Enganeer · Mega Poster

There were a few things I found out when I did the alternator conversion.

Pro's

Solid aluminum machined bracket
hardware and new belt supplied
Eliminates clearance issues with steering box, allowing more freedom for positioning of the engine.

Cons
The instructions are absolutely terrible, no torque specs and no pictures or routing diagram of the new belt. You have to look at the parts and try and figure out what should go were and a couple of steps should be reversed.

Fortunaley, there are only four bolts. The longest bolt goes in the lowest hole fyi.

Thank god for a shop manual to get the torque specs.

You will need to tweak one of the power steering line as it want to share the same spot as the coolant line that runs to the throttle body. Nothing mentioned in the instructions.

Before - pump is loosely bolted on and the metal line hits the coolant line. The coolant metal 'T' fitting is right there under the hose clamp, so it was not just a matter of pushing the hose away for clearance.

After tweaking - tucking it closer to the pump and pushing the metal line/ hose junction more under the resivoir (versus behind it)

Mount the alternator before the power steering pump. If you do it, per the instructions, the pulley on the power steering pump is too big and the alternator bolt head will not get past it - close but not enough. I ended up re-loosening the power steering pump alot so I could get the alternator mount bolt past.

Power steering pump loosened up and wiggle forward to get past bolt

The belt is about 1/4"-1/2" too small. I have my tension maxed in the compressed position and it was still a b!itch to get on...and that was with the engine sitting out in the open and no front clip on...I cannot image trying to do that if the car was assembled with radiator and electric fan.

The back of the alternator has a black plastic shrouding that may get too much heat from the header...can't say for sure yet.

Coolant temp sensor in head will be a tight fit with the alternator back cover on (see bolt point at it).

I think I will need to replace my power steering pump lines or rebend as the alternator sits above the gear box now and does not give you the freedom move them around as before.

Hint:

The power steering bolts are behind the pulley and there is enough space that you can use a gearwrench style wrench loosen and tigthen. You may need to come in at different directions when you relocate the pump.