Discussion Forum - Northstar Chevelle Club

John D · 2K+ Club

'96 LT1/4L60e Conversion is underway!

dashboard · 2K+ Club

You da man!

SShink · 3K+ Club

So John... what vehicle is this going into? Are pulling the 383 AGAIN? Or... are you going to flip the engine/trans and make some $?

Lost in the 60s · President

Apparently your background gives you the skill and knowledge necessary to know what circuits are needed and how to separate them. For dummies like me, the easiest thing is to toss the whole harness and get a stand alone from the aftermarket that only has the needed circuits already and is easily owner tuned from a hand held programmer.
Is there a "secret" project in the weeds .... biggrin

Derek69SS · Founding Member

Good luck John, I think you're going to like it. :)

I've recently heard that GM discontinued the LT4 knock-module, so you might want to pick one of them up real soon before they run out... LT1 knock-modules are too sensitive, and don't work well with any engine mods. Simply running headers can cause them to pull back timing. :(

bowtie · Secretary

get me a part number and I can see if anyone in town has one, or if they're still in the warehouse or across the country and a ballpark price too.

John D · 2K+ Club

Thanks for the tip Derek... As I'll be running a '96 PCM, the engine will have 2 knock sensors. I am thinking of scrounging a '95 PCM, as it's still OBD1 and easier to program than the '96 OBD2.

My knowledge/experience in electronics is a bit of a help, but in all humility anyone who has a DVM (digital volt meter), the Service Manual (for reference), some basic troubleshooting skills, and a few hours of internet searching could do this.

I wasn't kidding - if you wanted to take the bone-stock LT1/4L60e (with all emissions etc. intact) and bolt it in any car, there's only about 6 wires that need to be connected and you'd be on the road. Of course that doesn't take into account the needed fuel delivery (high pressure pump) changes, or necessary linkages, etc., but electrically that's all it is.

I'm driven by being a cheap SOB, on a very limited car budget - which means the $400+ for a new harness is out of the equation. I've got a perfectly good harness, I have to make it work.

No "Secret Project" here, this swap has always been in the works. The original 327 was tired, and having only 2 gears was really getting old. I had the 383/TH350 pickled on a stand - so why not use it? Now the thought of an easy 350HP, 25mpg, and "twist the key & go" driveability is calling.

67ss · 1K+ Club

Once you go EFI you will never look back. Like you said hit the key and go no fuss no muss. Yes the wiring and fuel system can be a little overwhelming at first but well worth it.

bowtie · Secretary

Your right. The only thing I have left on mine is to get back to that guy.... on final tuning. Last I remember, it still doesn't like colder weather, but that may be due to cutting off the warm coolant passage in the TB.

67ss · 1K+ Club

Yea details just let it warm up a few minutes.

Enganeer · Mega Poster

For that price pulled and sitting pretty for you is a bargain.

Post plenty of pics.

John D · 2K+ Club

Installment II:

The LT1 ran great, no noises, good power, and considering the reputation of these engines 135K miles is "just getting broken in" - 1/2 service life.... but (isn't there always a but...)

It is a grease turd! A victim of the usual 14 years of leaky valve cover & pan gaskets.

Spend the last few nights stripping it down to a "long block" - pulling the accessory drive system and intake manifold - and cleaning years of crud & gunk off of the parts. Got everything cleaned or blasted, painted & reassembled into "sub-assemblies. (I'll post pics later)

If the lifter valley is any indication, this thing was pretty well maintained. Not too much varnish or deposits on things, and no heavy "gunk" inside - just a brownish tinge to things.

bowtie · Secretary

All the gunk stayed outside huh?

dashboard · 2K+ Club

This post needs pixs.....

Lost in the 60s · President

dashboard wrote:

This post needs pixs.....

Here ya go....

John D · 2K+ Club

Whip/Smack/Lash - Geez you guys are tough... Here's the next installment!

(My problem is I "get into the zone" cleaning parts and checking/testing stuff and forget to take pictures!)

The last few evenings were spend doing compression, leakdown, then an internal look-see. Inbetween cleaning & painting stuff I rebuilt the alternator & starter as well.

Compression & Leakdown were all very good, but the timing chain & gears were a goner!
     Nasty wear pattern on the crank gear, and about 1/2" slop in the chain. I'd guess cam phasing would've been off about 6 deg. (I'm guessing the 'puter would compensate for the slop via the Crankshaft Position Sensor and it would still run well, unlike a traditional engine)
     The other bite about the LT1 is the timing set isn't your typical $39.95 SB Chevy timing set... Oh, no.. the waterpump is driven off a spur gear machined on the rear face of the timing chain teeth... a beautiful piece of machine-work, but can't be cheap to make! Lets just say you can buy about 4 Gen1 SB sets to ONE LT1 timing set!!
     Crankshaft end-play, and rod side clearances are all still within specs, and the rear main, crank snout, and distributor drive sealing surfaces are all perfect (no grooves in the seal contact area)! The new seals and gaskets should solve the oil hemorraging problem.

(One other diversion ate up about an hour of time, removing a snapped off exhaust manifold bolt in the driver's side head. About 20 years ago I bought a rediculously expensive bolt extractor kit from Snap-On. Well, it paid for itself tonight. There would be no way one of those "horseshoe nail" or "auger" type extractors would've gotten this bolt out.)

The basic long-block is back together again. New gaskets, seals, timing set, and a fresh 3 coats of engine paint. The intake/FI setup is just sitting on there for now (for one, to cap off the lifter valley... two, I couldn't wait to see what it looked like!)

I'm going to bed.

-- Edited by John D on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 07:35:06 PM

67ss · 1K+ Club

I don't know if your car has a/c or not but if so I have a friend that ordered one of these relocation kits for a conversion he was doing that never panned out. Here is a link to it http://www.bowersrodshop.com/info_pulley.htm I am sure he would sell it pretty resonable if it would work for you.

John D · 2K+ Club

Thanks for the link...
The donor car did have A/C, but sometime in it's history the compressor must have failed and for whatever reason ($$$ - little old lady car) a GM A/C delete pulley was installed (4th pic, finned pulley above starter).
I'm hoping to use this if there's no framerail clearance problems.

The other interesting thing about the donor is it had RPO V08 - Heavy Duty Cooling. Hence the mechanical clutch fan arrangement, with only 1 electric fan on the radiator. Depending upon clearance issues (again) I'd like to try and reuse this as well. The rub is there's a "regular" style pulley installed on the balancer, and a tensioner/fan drive stub shaft bracket assy. over the water pump. This whole rig adds about 6" to the front of the engine. (Not a problem in a Caprice/Roadmaster, but things are kinda tight in a Chevelle!)

bowtie · Secretary

Starting to take shape. You need some better valve covers, though. Look at 67SS's. They are GM's black signature line w/red chevrolet logo. A little spendy, though. Part number is 12497979

-- Edited by bowtie on Friday 2nd of April 2010 08:29:19 AM

dashboard · 2K+ Club

The question begs to be answered. When this bad boy is done where’s it going to live?

John D · 2K+ Club

It'll be going into the Black car... probably at the end of this season. I'm just thrashing on it now because I've got the time (before yardwork, cabin work, and all the other "jobs" kick in).

Derek69SS · Founding Member

I see the sig says the '64 is "gone"... Who bought it?

I've got a few minor criticisms...
-Home-Plate bracket... these engines look SOOO MUCH COOLER without home plate.
-oil-filler extension... The extension screws on the same as a cap, so you can pull the extension, and put the cap directly onto the valve cover for a cleaner look
-throttle-body coolant passage... not driving in winter, you don't need it hooked up. Small HP advantage by not warming the intake air also. biggrin

bowtie · Secretary

We cut the coolant passage horns off mine since they weren't needed too.

67ss · 1K+ Club

I just saw a set of aluminum LT1 heads on craigslist for $200. Not that they perform any better then the iron heads but they look cool.

John D · 2K+ Club

I'm still debating about "home plate". Unless I change my mind the goal of the install is to have it look like GM got with Mr. Peabody and the Way-Back Machine, and installed a '96 engine in a '65 car - totally stock/factory appearing. It'll be plugged/hockey puck'd, but in place.

(Myself, I kinda like the look - yeah it covers up the injector manifold, but it gives the appearance of an air cleaner. IMO these cars look like something's missing when you open the hood and there's nothing on top of the engine... this would also dictate keeping or deleting the oil filler extension.)

I'd planned to bypass the throttle body heat, and dummy it out near the TPS using a hidden "tee" with one leg plugged. The hot coolant feed from the rear of the heads will just take a left turn to the overflow jug instead of going to the throttle body.

A guy in Ramsey bought the yellow beastie. Haven't heard from him, so all the parts I said were there must have been there!

John D · 2K+ Club

Well, the valve lash/lifter preload is set & the intake torqued down. I had to break one of my cardinal rules about sealant...

I hate silcone. IMO it's the most over-used, improperly used substance on the planet. It's not a cure all for leaks - something else is wrong.... and I had to use it on my engine because there aren't any F&R lifter valley gaskets made!!

I wiped all mating surfaces with lacquer thinner, applied the recommended 3/16" bead of goo, and carefully set the intake in place. Got the supposed "proper squish-out", and torqued it.

If this SOB leaks one drop I'll be PO'd!! I know they don't leak with gaskets!

dashboard · 2K+ Club

John D wrote:
I hate silcone. IMO it's the most over-used, improperly used substance on the planet.

I agree, have you seen some of these woman at our car shows. Talk about after market stuff....I mean....

John D · 2K+ Club

Yup, you'd think some of those "aftermarket" bolt-ons are filled with helium instead of silicone! They defy about 6 of Newton's Laws!

Scott Parkhurst · Super Poster

Agreed. We will have to thoroughly inspect all such silicone bolt-ons at Car Craft this year. Maybe we should rate them as a group - the Club needs to represent with a concensus opinion, right?

John D · 2K+ Club

Spend a good part of yesterday helping fellow member Craig S. (the other Mohave Gold) get his new 200r4 setup - TV cable, shifter linkage, and header back in (man are big-block headers a PAIN).

Got me in the mood for some work on mine... picked up some 2-1/2" collector flanges and cut the exhaust off about 6" in front of the mufflers. Slid the flanges onto the pipes, bolted them together (lining everything back up) and tacked them in place.

Unbolted the new flanges, then the header collectors, and dropped the whole X-pipe assembly out from under the car. Finish welded the new flanges, and repaired a few pinhole leaks from the original install.

Some new collector gaskets, 12 bolts, and the exhaust is back in the car with no leaks and easy access to the trans, driveshaft & crossmember!

67ss · 1K+ Club

Just thought of something on your conversion, you will need to convert the tail housing on your 4l60 back to a mechanical speedo and then put on a vss to feed the PCM. Otherwise for big bucks there are companies that sell tail housings that have both the mechanical speedo and electrical VSS in them together. Just some food for thought or maybe you have this all figured out already.

John D · 2K+ Club

Yeah, I've been looking into the speedo thing... $$$

There appears to be 2 courses of action:
1 - a conversion tailcone that has a dual gear (VSS reluctor & speedo drive).
2 - a speedo "drive box" that takes the VSS pulse and creates a drive output.

price of admission = $280 to $400

Derek69SS · Founding Member

Option 3: aftermarket gauges

John D · 2K+ Club

I've thought about that too... but I had such a hard time finding (then reconditioning) my genny '65 guage cluster I don't want to give it up.

(I have given thought to taking an electronic speedo's guts and mating it to a '65 speedo face/needle assy... hmmm)

67ss · 1K+ Club

On Bowties chevelle we converted his back to a mechanical speedo, you should be able to get all the parts at the local you pull it junk yard for next to nothing. Then bought a $70 VSS that was the correct pulses per mile.

bowtie · Secretary

Yep. I actually was looking at that yesterday. Very slick unit.

John D · 2K+ Club

"On Bowties chevelle we converted his back to a mechanical speedo, you should be able to get all the parts at the local you pull it junk yard for next to nothing. Then bought a $70 VSS that was the correct pulses per mile."

Looked into this too - the rub is I'm running the 4L60e. This trans uses a different tailcone (electronic/VSS sender only), and the main output shaft isn't drilled for a speedo gear locking key. You can easily swap a 700r4 tailcone on it (with the speedo drive housing cast in), but there's no easy/cheap way to put a speedo drive gear on the 4L60e output shaft - unless you pull the trans apart and put a 700r4 output shaft in it.
Dakota Digital is supposed to release a new dash for '64/'65's late this year. It uses "analog" style gauges in combination with the digital readouts... hmmmm...

08/10/10 - Got my modified harness clipped onto the "new" engine. I'm pretty much in a holding pattern until I decide to become a member of the "car is apart" clan... can't do too much more until I commit to the conversion.

-- Edited by John D on Wednesday 11th of August 2010 04:49:09 PM

John D · 2K+ Club

Spent the last few nights "decompressing" (from week from hell at work) by cleaning up parts.... Got the LT-1 oil cooler, trans cooler, and power steering lines flushed out, cleaned up and bolted back on.

The LT-1 uses a remote power steering reservoir, and the bracket for it also mounts the A/C dryer to the fender. After a few minutes with a hammer and the vise, I converted the dryer hold down into a nifty bracket for the steering fluid cooler I scrounged off a E-150. A quick trip in the blast cabinet, and a shot with some rattle can semi-gloss black and it's ready to bolt on.

John D · 2K+ Club

I'm at the stage of having to commit... park the car and pull the 383/TH350 and stab the LT1/4l60 in. Can't really "do" any more until the new powertrain is in - mounting ECM, routing wiring, and the (ugh) fuel system conversion.

Buford's still occupying the bulk of my workspace. His days are numbered. I think I'll give him another week on the Green Mile then zap.

67ss · 1K+ Club

This is what you need to solve your speedo issue. http://www.shiftworks.com/tailhousing.htm

One of the guys I work with used this setup when he swapped a 5.3 into his 63 chevy pickup. Little expensive but makes it a clean install.

John D · 2K+ Club

Yup, I've looked into those. It is the slicko way to get the best of both worlds - but $400 is pretty darn steep.

(I wish I could get my hands on (or find out who makes) the combination speedo gear-reluctor collar for the output shaft! I've already scrounged a 700r4 tailcone & speedo drive hub - I'd just have to bore a hole in it for the VSS pickup and I'd be done!)

Chris R · 2K+ Club

A shiftworks vendor might be able to get that part cheaper then thier price. Thats probably retail. I think Shiftworks is a sponsor of Team Chevelle too.

John D · 2K+ Club

OK, now I'm a member of the "Car's Apart" club...

Started the process of converting the fuel system to an "in-tank" / high pressure system with a return.
I'm a firm believer in using factory parts whenever possible, for a few reasons:
- time-proven reliability.
- literally 10's of thousands of units in service, or "pick-able".
- can find repair parts in Quackgrass Flats, Oklahoma if you break down.
- I'm a cheap SOB and my fabricating skills are bigger than my wallet!

At the top of this post I talked about picking up a gas tank from a '96 Roadmaster Wagon. Some quicky measurements (at the time) told me it'd probably fit. Here's the progress after about 5 hours...

This will be a WHOLE lot cheaper than a new EFI custom tank, or getting a stock replacement tank "sumped & pumped". I'm figuring about $15 in raw materials, and whatever the used tank is worth.
I'll have to fabricate a rear hanger bar, but that'll be not much more than a length of tubing between the body braces and some J-hooks. The front attachment will be some long bolts with a short stub of pipe as a spacer to the body brace. Whatever I come up with, it will have to be strong - 22 gals of gas is about 135 lbs., and it's a dynamic load.

bowtie · Secretary

Gotta love it.

Derek69SS · Founding Member

John D wrote:

OK, now I'm a member of the "Car's Apart" club...

That's better than the "Car's Broken" club I'm currently in... confuse Be forewarned that 4L60s aren't very strong. disbelief

bowtie · Secretary

67SS chris's 4L60/700R4 is pretty strong, but it took some work. Once it was already built, it was not to his liking. I think I sold him the planetary set for a 4L65E, and there was some other internal tweaks more than the regular stuff.

Mine has held up so far, but it shifts pretty light under WOT, 3-4 is more of a slide. I plan on getting it recalibrated or whatever next year by John at Master down by Stans. Mine already has a upgraded shell, servo/solenoid (whatever), and is the last year before electric came.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

Ive been part of the cars broken club for like 5 years or something like this.

Seems every time I get close to getting some money together, something always comes up. This time im planning to go back to school in December.

John D · 2K+ Club

Spend a few more hours tonight on the mounting system. Finalized & built the rear crossmember/hanger, drilled the holes in the body braces, cleaned up & painted the factory strap. Stuff should be dry by tomorrow and I can proceed.

John D · 2K+ Club

All the fabrication is done, the parts painted, and the tank is in place. I can't believe how well the '96 wagon tank just snuggled up into place! Here's a few pics of the finished product:

I'm going to do a detailed write-up (with parts list & dimensions). This swap should work with '65 wagons as well. Now for the filler neck...

Scott Parkhurst · Super Poster

If it works in a '65, it oughta work under a '67. Makes a guy think...