Discussion Forum - Northstar Chevelle Club

John D · 2K+ Club

RE: 700r4 checking my answers

John D · 2K+ Club

Cooz - check your PM's

bowtie · Secretary

One of the coolest things about Car Craft with the club is there we all have different interests when there. Some guys are into the RSE stuff, some are into resto cars, some are just there to be there, some are there to be seen and see all their friends. If you don't know anyone in the club, you will by the end of the first day, just follow along with a coupld guys when they go looking at stuff.

SShink · 3K+ Club

cooz65 wrote:
Just wanted to say THANK YOU to everyone that helped out! everything is in place and working properly (or so it seems). See ya guys next week at car craft!

That's great Steven! CC will be a blast, and you will have fun hanging out on Chevelle Row!

cooz65 · Webmaster

Just wanted to say THANK YOU to everyone that helped out! everything is in place and working properly (or so it seems). See ya guys next week at car craft!

Lost in the 60s · President

Sounds like you are very close on the adjustment. Good to see you are working thru all the issues that arise with these type of swaps. Many people give up. I can't help with the details as I haven't installed my 200r4 yet but I like your "tenacity'. Keep at it and you'll get it !!

cooz65 · Webmaster

Went out for the maiden voyage yesterday! Everything seemed to work great except a few minor things. I'm kicking myself for not replacing the gasket around the tv cable, got a real small leak there. and the tranny seemed to shift really nice and smooth, not a problem, but it would shift into OD at 30 mph. If I was accelerating up to cruising speed it would shift just fine, but on the back roads, it would seem like it would go from 2nd gear to 4th and not hold itself in third. I could shift it down to third, but as soon as i put it in od it would go to fourth? This just seems way to soon, buuut I was very pleased to see the torque converter lock up at at 60 mph I was only spinning about 1800 rpms! What a relief!

cooz65 · Webmaster

sorry for the huge pictures.......

cooz65 · Webmaster

Alright so tonight I took some measurements of my arm and it looks like my angles are very similar to GM's

http://www.countywidetransmissions.com/images/cadjust.pdf

Here are some pictures of the plunger, with it all the way out, it is just barely touching the plunger, just has it pushed in a hair,

?ui=2&ik=7a8bfe5d8d&view=att&th=13f69a8a2ecf9f9e&attid=0.1&disp=inline&realattid=1438507042741420032-local0&safe=1&zw&saduie=AG9B_P9apXIdhQrELGyZJ21DaAWa&sadet=1371867347254&sads=O5Tv85z7eXjcJhKHeX1g9y-BWmk

and here is a picture with it buried

?ui=2&ik=7a8bfe5d8d&view=att&th=13f69a7d279d9245&attid=0.1&disp=inline&realattid=1438506977806254080-local0&safe=1&zw&saduie=AG9B_P9apXIdhQrELGyZJ21DaAWa&sadet=1371867399471&sads=iFW_J7a5hia0FaCvqTnvyow4wwQ

At WOT the plunger is right up the edge of the radius, you can push it in that hair more, but is it supposed to flush? or how I have it? If I burry the plunger, it will throw off my idle setting and vise versa.

Also, is an external tranny cooler supposed to be used with the radiator cooling lines, so it would run through the radiator and then through an external cooler, or are those external coolers intended to be run by themselves.

Thanks for the help!

67ss · 1K+ Club

I wonder if orielly's in their loaner tools might have an oil pressure gauge tester that would go high enough. If not PM me and I might be able to help you out.

cooz65 · Webmaster

Thanks for the pictures Bowtie! I talked with this guy named cliff, from http://cliffshighperformance.com/, and dang what a guy! Knew everything there was to know about quadrajets and he talked and bs.ed with me for about 15 mins just talking cars. I would by his rebuild kit and other parts from him just from the willing to help standpoint. He said that the geometry between the kickdown stud and a tv stud were very close and that if I use that bottom stud I would be in the ball park. I like the idea of slotting that bracket to give a little bit more play in the system. I will be on my way home tonight after work and will give it a try. Does anyone have a transmission pressure gauge? I called my local napa and they didn't have one, or any ideas of where I could rent one from? Thanks!

bowtie · Secretary

TV cable corrector lever:

installed:

The bracket is 2 pieces, 67SS slotted one and used screws to help hold it firm until it was correct, then tacked it into place and added paint. Had to get a little creative. The original bracket was some sort of universal one I think and part of it was cut off and discarded too.

-- Edited by bowtie on Thursday 20th of June 2013 08:44:35 PM

Lost in the 60s · President

My Bowtie kit is for a Lokar cable and has a fancy adjustable mechanism to mount on the throttle arm. Not gonna be appicable to a regular TV end.

67ss · 1K+ Club

I cannot seem to post pictures anymore. It just sits and loads but never finishes.

SShink · 3K+ Club

bowtie wrote:
67ss wrote:
That is exactly what I did to the holding bracket that is on the 55. I cut it welded two screws to it with nuts on the bottom. So I am able to slide the whole bracket forward or backwards on itself to fine tune as needed.
You did this on mine on the original carb setup too.

C'mon guys... help the kid out here. Any pics you can post?

bowtie · Secretary

67ss wrote:
That is exactly what I did to the holding bracket that is on the 55. I cut it welded two screws to it with nuts on the bottom. So I am able to slide the whole bracket forward or backwards on itself to fine tune as needed.

You did this on mine on the original carb setup too.

Bungy L-76 · Active Member

It's not the cable, they're all the same. The problem is how it's mounted. If it's connected closer to the carb pivot point it will have a shorter pull, farther away, it'll have a longer pull.

GM did get it right. The problem is, you're not using GM parts, you're using TCI parts. It appears TCI didn't get it right. I'm sure GM made cars with a Quadrajet carb and a 700R4 trans. Maybe you could just get the GM carb linkage and cable mounting bracket for that application and it would be a simple bolt on.

67ss · 1K+ Club

Lost in the 60s wrote:
There should be a mounting point for the cable housing at the carb. In my limited opinion, that plate should move forward to allow the cable to extend further instead of cutting an arm and moving it back. If the cable is too short to get more travel, the cable may be wrong for the application. I have the bowtie kit for my '38 and will see what adjustment there is for the housing mount and cable length.

That is exactly what I did to the holding bracket that is on the 55. I cut it welded two screws to it with nuts on the bottom. So I am able to slide the whole bracket forward or backwards on itself to fine tune as needed.

Lost in the 60s · President

There should be a mounting point for the cable housing at the carb. In my limited opinion, that plate should move forward to allow the cable to extend further instead of cutting an arm and moving it back. If the cable is too short to get more travel, the cable may be wrong for the application. I have the bowtie kit for my '38 and will see what adjustment there is for the housing mount and cable length.

SteveS · Super Poster

Getting John's advise is a good idea. I would guess that the button on your carb was intended for a kick down cable like a turbo 350 would have. The kick down cable is more like an on/off switch where your TV cable adjustment is more critical because it varies with the throttle position.

cooz65 · Webmaster

Thanks for the advice. John is a little bit of a drive for me, but I am definitely going to give him a call after work and see what words of encouragement he has to offer before I start cutting. It seems kind of odd to me that GM didn't get this right in the first place. For such a critical system it just doesn't seem like guys should have had this much trouble with it had it been good to go in the first place.

67ss · 1K+ Club

I think before I would butcher up the linkage you might bring the car to John at Master and let him get it adjusted for you.

67ss · 1K+ Club

Option B here is the line pressure table from the service manual. Borrow a gauge and try to adjust it accordingly. Sorry it is upside down but you'll figure it out.

-- Edited by 67ss on Wednesday 19th of June 2013 01:55:54 PM

SteveS · Super Poster

When I put the the 700r4 in mine I had a Holley 4150 carb. I bought a bolt on arm like the TCI one you show. It would bolt to my carb but I still ended up cutting and rewelding the button on it to get it to work like I wanted. If you can cut and reweld the arm like they show it should work.

cooz65 · Webmaster

yes it does that that stud on the lower part, but heres the thing, when I would attach it, I could feel the plunger already being pushed in, instead of just barely being touched, and then the plunger would bottom out before I was at WOT. I have the cable adjusted as far out as it will go. I mean it's only off maybe, 1/8"in each direction, but none the less, I can't get to WOT with the plunger buried and at idle with the plunger just engaging. Is there a fix for this? I stumbled across this website, http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/techinfo/700R4p1.html which shows how he cut and rewelded the arm to fit those angles? Sound good?

67ss · 1K+ Club

My guess is TCI thought you had a 1406 style edelbrock carb not a quadrajet replacement. So does you Q-jet have the stud on the lower back part of the throttle linkage like your picture shows? If it does you hook the TV cable right to that. If it does not then just buy a replacement stud like that one that bolts into that spot.

cooz65 · Webmaster

Wahoo!!! transmission is in! took two days to get it done, but it is in now! what better way to spend fathers day than with the old man gettin dirty under the car! Now if you guys could help me on some nitty gritty details. Of course it has to come down to the tv cable, I thought I had it all figured it, all my research down, buuuuut of course something had to go wrong. Here is a picture of what I have for a carb, its essentially an edelbrock 1903

ry%3D480

Here is a picture of what I had ordered, and what tci auto had told me that I needed for my carb, will be calling them tomorrow to tell them that they were wrong!!!

ry%3D480

Sooooo now what? From what I have read, that bottom stud was meant for a t.h. 350 for the kickdown cable, and not a tv cable? I can't find any other "geometry corrector" cable kits. Does anyone know of another kit? (I was trying to avoid the tv made ez kit, was going to go for the nice one when the tranny gets rebuilt and its a final application) Can I use that bottom stud?

Everything was going sooooo well right up until the end..(besides forgetting to put the filler tube in and having to drop the transmission so it would fit between the tunnel and firewall), but everything was going sooo well and now its like well crap, now what. Any help or advice would be great! thanks guys!

-- Edited by cooz65 on Sunday 16th of June 2013 09:44:11 PM

John D · 2K+ Club

That appears to be correct. The toggle will cut power to the solenoid, essentially duplicating what the brake switch does.

cooz65 · Webmaster

Parts have been PURCHASED!!! wahooooo!!!! and according to fedex tracker everything has arrived safely at home!!

Thanks guys for all the help and advice! I went ahead and bought a wiring kit from bowtie overdrives and if I add in a toggle switch, so that I can manually turn on and off the t.c. especially in town when it wants to go into overdrive, is this the correct place to put it?

wiring

Bungy L-76 · Active Member

The Bowtieoverdrive kit is way better then the generic bracket and carb arm. The Bowtie carb arm is egg shaped and pulls the cable in a non-linear fashion. The generic bracket just pulls the cable out at the same rate and is not correct for the overdrive transmissions. The kit also has a correct TV spring that is installed in the valve body. This positions the TV plunger in the correct spot (even the factory springs are not centered) It also includes the TV cable which ups the price somewhat, but I would definitly spend the extra money (which is what I did). They invested a lot of R&D into this kit and it's the best on the market.

As for the lock-up kit, I don't know, I'm still researching that myself for my 2004R Bel-Air install. When I put a 700R4 into my Chevelle, I just used a B&M kit with a toggle switch. I'm not going to do that again, I'm for sure going with a lock-up TC but I want it to be all automatic.

cooz65 · Webmaster

Alright guys, I'm on the move again!!! I need some help and advice before I go ahead and purchase anything. My first question is involving the TV Cable kits. I've done some looking and can't decided between the TV made EZ kit and the TCI auto kit.

Here is the tvmadeez kit

http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog_inc/viewitem.php?ITEMID=221

with instructions

http://www.tvmadeez.com/1905_cam/

here is my problem with the kit, I already have a 3/4" base plate under my carb, and the transmission I bought came with the a TV Cable so how do I pay $130 for a couple of brackets?

SO then I called TCI auto and here are the two parts that he said I would need

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tci-376710/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tci-376700

for a grand total of $60, I had read a couple of people who had used the TCI stuff and never had any problems with them so why is the TVMADEEZ kit so expensive? is it really worth that much more? or does anyone have any other tv kit ideas that would work?

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My other question involves the torque converter lock up kits.

Here are a couple of different versions....

Speedo Cable

http://bmracing.com/?wpsc-product=converter-lockup-control-for-gm-automatic-trans-wlockup-converter-mechanical-speedometer

a vacuum line

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tci-376600

and a brake line (which looks the simplest plug and play)

http://bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog_inc/viewitem.php?ITEMID=336

is there a preference between these 3 kits, I know different members have used different kits, just trying to get a good understanding for the easiest kit.

Also just thought I would throw this out there, if anyone has any left over parts that are no longer in service and would like to get them out of your garage, let me know, I'd love to pay you to help clean out your garage.

Thanks Guys!

John D · 2K+ Club

Ditto on Mitch's recommendations - rear seal, dipstick, AND do the front-pump/converter seal.

They're about $10, can be done easily, and can only be replaced with the trans out of the car.

The only a couple of gotcha's about the front pump seal:
- (if the converter is still in place) Do it with the front of the trans hanging over the edge of the bench, with a drain pan on the floor. About 3 qts. of fluid will pour out.
- Once the converter is out, be VERY careful prying the old seal out. Don't damage the machine-work where the seal seats against.
- Get the new seal tapped into place and fully seated.
- LUBE THE NEW SEAL! Slather it with fresh trans fluid, and use some vaseline on the sealing lips and the converter snout.

- CAREFULLY slide the converter into the new seal, and make sure it is fully seated into the transmission! There are 3 shafts/drives that need to engage within the converter. Gently press inward while turning the converter and it will eventually clunk all the way in. There should be barely enough room for your pinkie between the belhousing and the converter when it's all the way in.

Chris R · 2K+ Club

If your looking for a cheap engine upgrade. Found this just now while browsing. I dont know the seller but might be able to check it out if you decide to pursue it further.

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/pts/3809412190.html

Lost in the 60s · President

Sounds like you got a good deal.

Fresh fluid filter and SEALS, I believe there is a front seal too ? May not be servicable from the outside. Check the shaft seal, they like to dry out and leak over time too. New o-ring on the filler tube..... may as well try to keep the fluid inside rather than all over under the car.

Don't bother with a shift kit, it should handle what you have for now quite well.

Hook up the speedo and check it with a GPS. John at MT can build an adaptor to go between the cable and housing to correct it for pretty cheap.

Sorry I didn't get to meet you Sat. Between the weather and the price of gas, I stayed home and worked on my car.

cooz65 · Webmaster

Well I'm all moved in and I have to say living on a lake this summer is going to be awesome! On my way up to Eden Valley I picked up the tranny! Everything looks good! Now to start the install.

Before the transmission even goes in what should be done to it? I will be draining the fluid, replacing the gasket, and replace the rear seal.

It sounds like there is a rear bushing, should this be done as well?

What else am I overlooking internally that should be done before I even start this adventure?

Lock up: I've decided to continue to use the lock-up. For budget purposes, this will save me some money up-front, until a rebuild is in her future then I can decide then.

Tv Kit: Once I find out what model Q-jet I'm running, I'll order up that TV cable kit.

Speedo-not even going to worry about it right now, I know this sounds bad, but who knows if tire sizes, rear end, etc will be replaced in the future and it throws it all off anyways.

Torque Converter bolts-I'll have to order these as well

Shift-kit- Should I even bother with one right now? It may already have one as it sounded like the GN and Monte Carlo SS came with one from the factory?

Shifter-Going to call B&M tomorrow and see if they sell the individual plate to make my B&M Sport Shifter that is currently set up for a 3 speed work with overdrive. On summit racing, it says this shifter is compatible with the 200r4, I just have to figure out how.

I know I have a lot of questions, just trying to make sure all my ducks are in a row! It was good getting to meet some of you guys on saturday! Awesome club!

Jon H · 1K+ Club

I was advised against the lock up by John at MT and one of our members who had it on his and found it to be a PIA and removed it at an additional cost resulting in a product he is now happy with. Maybe Craig S. can chime in here.

cooz65 · Webmaster

The deal has been done! Well almost. The guy lives in Annandale, MN and so on Sunday, when I am moving to Eden Valley (by St. Cloud), I am going to stop by, take a look, and hand over the dough. He was nice enough to hold onto it for me until Sunday so I don't have to make an extra trip out there.

Alright now to understand the TV cable. Currently I am running a q-jet on my 283, (i have a holley street avenger 570, but the engine has never liked it, even after rebuilding it)

-http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog.php?Action=GETSUBCAT&CATID=WA3A44

-it looks like these kits are specific the the carb you are running, for geometry sake, so if I order one for a q-jet, that will be the carb choice for a while then, correct?

-are you guys experienced in tuning these things. They sound pretty simple to set up, but if done incorrectly can burn up a transmission pretty quickly

Lock up kit

-http://www.700r4.com/tech/tcc/relay_install/diagram.shtml

-http://bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog_inc/viewitem.php?ITEMID=336

-again sounds pretty simple, plug and play

I have heard some guys talk about a spring that needs to be replaced in the valve body? Something about the TV spring, or something?

Also I know I will want to replace the filter, and so a new gasket.

Am I missing anything else? (besides the speedo gears, with the current set-up I have now I know what gears I need, but who knows if all of that is going to stay the same, am I ok not even running a cable to it) I'm just trying to make sure all my ducks are in a row before really diving in. It's always a goal, probably won't happen, but I would like for there to be as little down time as possible so I can keep driving this summer.

Thanks guys

Lost in the 60s · President

cooz65 wrote:
Here is what he sent me.....

"The code on the aluminum and yellow tag is CZF The part# ID # on the tag is :240-871CZF0156"

from what i can tell, the 871 stands for built in 87 on first shift....CZ = Monte Carlo SS H/O.....F=200r4........and 0156 is the production number

for $175 can I go wrong with this? even if the guy is lying to me and the internals are shot and I don't end up using it....I should have no problem reselling it at $175 even as a core? but either way unless one of you "seasoned" vets start screaming saying this is a bad deal... I'm doing it!!!

Pull the pan and see if there is any scrapnel in it. If it's clean, it's a steal. That is the second most desirable 200r4 after the GN ones.

cooz65 · Webmaster

Here is what he sent me.....

"The code on the aluminum and yellow tag is CZF The part# ID # on the tag is :240-871CZF0156"

from what i can tell, the 871 stands for built in 87 on first shift....CZ = Monte Carlo SS H/O.....F=200r4........and 0156 is the production number

for $175 can I go wrong with this? even if the guy is lying to me and the internals are shot and I don't end up using it....I should have no problem reselling it at $175 even as a core? but either way unless one of you "seasoned" vets start screaming saying this is a bad deal... I'm doing it!!!

bowtie · Secretary

A converter essentially shears the fluid within it, and the different designs let it happen at different rates. A lock-up converter (when locked) will not have the losses created by the converter slippage and also won't then have the heat build-up. I believe you can also direct-wire in a lockup switch if you really wanted to.

Jon H · 1K+ Club

Lost in the 60s wrote:
Jon H wrote:

they have no memory and forget what you said soon after anyway.

Good luck with your build.
Who are you ??

Who's asking?

Lost in the 60s · President

Jon H wrote:

they have no memory and forget what you said soon after anyway.

Good luck with your build.

Who are you ??

Jon H · 1K+ Club

Cooz,

I too am a believer in Monster Transmission. I recently converted from a T400 to a 200-R4 in my '69. I have 450+HP in front of the 200 and am not concerned. John at MT said he has 600+HP cars with 200's in them and they hold up. I was told that the 700 is stronger from the factory but the 200 can be "built" stronger. Believe what you will. I went with the 200 as I liked the gear ratios. I don't need the deep first gear of the 700 for my use of the car. I can still roll the tires as long as I want off the line with the 200.

My advice is pick what you want and go for that build. It will cost a whole lot more down the line to do a second tranny.

As far as the "old guys" comment, those that deserve the remark here are either thick skinned enough to take it or they have no memory and forget what you said soon after anyway.

Good luck with your build.

Lost in the 60s · President

This link has all the codes and applications. Scroll to the very bottom and read how the tags are Identified for year. This chart is a little hard to decifer but seems rather complete.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070128173316/http://members.aol.com/powerrslid/thm2004r.html

cooz65 · Webmaster

Ya on the lock-up, it sounded like there is a clutch inside the converter that makes it a true 1:1, otherwise with a conventional converter there is about 300rpm of slipeage that takes place. And it also sounded like you really only use the lockup when cruising on the freeway, and if you don't use the lockup it can burn up the transmission quicker. So true I won't need it right away, but before I would do a whole lot of driving on the freeway I would need it. I think I'm starting to understand all of this lock-up talk....

Once I get the pictures and the numbers I was just going to do a simple google search to see what I can find. Do you have a good go to place for the ID's?

As for the speedometer gears, I haven't started to worry about that... I don't even know where to start because my current speedo doesn't always work, if it does work the needle bounces, and even at that, the speed isn't accurate at all. I just use the gps on my phone, the tach, or what feels like the right speed. I'm assuming the previous owner never made the proper adjustments once it went from the powerglide the 350.

Tim H · Mega Poster

cooz65 wrote:
Sorry about calling you guys "old" how does the phrase experienced sound? You have all "experienced" much more than I have in your "olden" days. Anyways....car talk!

Oh I think we all enjoy it and it gives us a lead in to rib each other so I wouldn't worry about it one bit. It is good to see a younger generation enjoy the cars of the 60's and 70's. Besides some of us are old or at least older than others.

Lost in the 60s · President

The 200 is an easier install and in 87 it still has a cable for the speedo. All you would need extra is the mount for the TV cable at the carb. Don't be concerned about the converter locking for now. As John said, it may drop the rpm too much for your current engine.

If the seller is in doubt, you definitly want the tag number to know what it came from. Do you have the list of tag ID's ??

cooz65 · Webmaster

haha alright, I can respect "seasoned" that sounds good to me

Bowtie- I would be interested in some coil springs as I wouldn't mind giving her a little bit or rake

Also would this kit be something of interest or comparable to what you had? This kit seems to be vacuum controlled while others are sensor related (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tci-376600/overview/)

He wasn't sure if it was the original transmission out of the car, but he was going to take some pictures for me so I could get a read on the ID tag to determine what it did come out of. I would agree that it will not be around long, as there was another 200r4 posted the day before at $350. It does seem like a good deal, and I am close to pulling the plug on it, I am just now a little scared to actually tackle this big of a project

Lost in the 60s · President

cooz65 wrote:
Day off without any finals, and so that means time to relax and do some homework on things I actually enjoy!
Sorry about calling you guys "old" how does the phrase experienced sound? You have all "experienced" much more than I have in your "olden" days. Anyways....car talk!
You guys were right, John is an awesome guy who gave me some things to think about as well.
-The biggest thing that he said I could run into troubles with is the fact that the lil 283 has no low end torque/power (I would agree with him, my 283 feels even weaker than it but that's another problem) and so when it would drop to 4th, dropping the rpms down to 2000ish at 65, the engine might lug, and chug, and just not be happy. Once the 383 is built, none of this becomes an issue.
-If the case, would I really see any noticeable mpg increase (gas just keeps going up!), but bringing the rpm's down 1000 would sure make for a nicer ride.
-John also mentioned that he converts a lot of 200 and 700's over to nonlock up converters.....another thing to think about and another potential cost
-What kits are you guys running for the converter lock up? It sounds like there are a couple of different methods to go about this.
-And how hard are these lockup kits to install?
-Bowtie, I have 205/75/15, so about 27inches tall and without some tubbing, nothing much bigger is going to fit as much as I wish it would
Just found a 200r4 off of C.L. for $175, out of a 87 monte carlo ss, says in good working order, torque convert included- Caught my interest
Also Bowtieman427 has a 700 he would sell me and so now I have some options....and decisions as I continue to bang my head against the wall with all of this

At that price, I doubt you will have much time to think about it. If I was in the market, it would be sold. I paid $165 for a rebuildable core and the 87 SS will have some of the good stuff already in it.

John D · 2K+ Club

Sorry about calling you guys "old" how does the phrase experienced sound? I'd prefer "seasoned"....