Discussion Forum - Northstar Chevelle Club

Enganeer · Mega Poster

1970 El Camino LS1 /T56 conversion log

Lost in the 60s · President

Hoo boy, you did it now, huh ? Are you going to use the stock exhaust manifolds or get the spendy conversion headers ? I did this conversion in a '69 Camaro last year. Buy the adaptors for the PS lines to get from metric to sae. We had custom hoses made by Pertek and they ended up costing more than the adaptor route would've. Radiator is another big expense. We re-used his new aluminum radiator for a 350 by cutting apart upper hoses and adding steel tubes to get the angles right and drilled and tapped the water pump for a steam bypass hose.

Have a fun with it and it will be worth it when it's done.

SShink · 3K+ Club

Looking forward to seeing this develop John! Obviously, from my LSX post and the interest I may have... I'm going to be watching closely!

SteveS · Super Poster

Very clean El Camino John, looks like you've got a good starting point . Have you decided on what engine mount/ headers/oil pan you're going to use? If you run into any issues I might be able to help with let me know.

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Lost in the 60s wrote:
Hoo boy, you did it now, huh ? Are you going to use the stock exhaust manifolds or get the spendy conversion headers ? I did this conversion in a '69 Camaro last year. Buy the adaptors for the PS lines to get from metric to sae. We had custom hoses made by Pertek and they ended up costing more than the adaptor route would've. Radiator is another big expense. We re-used his new aluminum radiator for a 350 by cutting apart upper hoses and adding steel tubes to get the angles right and drilled and tapped the water pump for a steam bypass hose.

Have a fun with it and it will be worth it when it's done.

I figure I had to start to dig in otherwise, it would just sit there procrastinig. Do you have p/n for the adaptors?

For the conversion:

I am starting out using trans dapt 1" setback (pn 4595) for the engine swap mount kit.

I will be using the f-body accessories and oil pan.

I may move the engine even farther back to clear the f-body alternator if needed by unbolting the framestands and moving them where I wanted and drilled new holes for them. If the oil pan sits too low, I may play around with different mounts types to raise the engine.

AC compressor will be relocated instead of notching the front crossmember (unless I move far enough back).

For headers, I have read that f-body pacesetter 'off-road' headers fit decent but one header may need adjustment for the exit (points at an angle).

Lost in the 60s · President

Digging in is what got me a 9 month rebuild on the '66...

The trans dapt kit is what I used on the Camaro and the mounts are junk.....plain and simple. They are extremely cheap and non-locking. I got locking mounts and that raised the engine enough to necessitate moving the frame stands out. You could use poly mounts and probably not have to relocate anything but there are other kits out there. Check it out on the LS site.

No part number on the adaptors, as I didn't use them and my memory only goes back a few hours.

If you are leaving the engine stock, I would use the cast manifolds and save some money for now instead of buying something that "may" fit. The manifolds flow pretty well and won't hurt performance in stock trim.

-- Edited by Lost in the 60s on Wednesday 21st of September 2011 08:52:21 AM

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Since when can I leave anything stock? I have some goodies to swap out - heads, intake + injectors, cam, hptuners, etc.

The trans dapt kit is just to get me started. I did not look at the mounts too closely but they were nothing like the energy suspension mounts I used for my 64'.

Lost in the 60s · President

Enganeer wrote:
Since when can I leave anything stock? I have some goodies to swap out - heads, intake + injectors, cam, hptuners, etc.
The trans dapt kit is just to get me started. I did not look at the mounts too closely but they were nothing like the energy suspension mounts I used for my 64'.

Spoken in true gearhead jargon...
I'm not one to leave things stock either. Even my Pete has a different turbo, nozzles and timing...

Derek69SS · Founding Member

Don't bother with the metric adapters for the steering box, just swap in a Jeep GC or Caprice 9C1 box and you'll get the Metric O-ring style fittings AND a cheap upgrade to quick-ratio steering. :)

Enganeer · Mega Poster

I was just reading about using the Jeep Grand Cherokee box.

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Wednesday - Done with the dirty heavy stuff. Pulled engine and transmission and seperated the two. Made a big mess and then cleaned it all up again. .

Jockeyed the engine / trans to drop on the floor. Could not go back enough, so I was able to turn the corner and drop.

Nice engine mount.

The cleaning will now begin - maybe tomorrow. I am tired and getting to old.

SShink · 3K+ Club

Wow John, you are working in a cramped space! It makes me nervous seeing the fender of your Chevelle that close!

You must have the week off to be getting this much done though. Now you can start cleaning things up and mocking in the LS engine! Nice work!

Enganeer · Mega Poster

The cramped space is semi-self induced. Once I start cleaning out some of my goodies for this conversion, more space will be available. I may unload my 67' 327 and 4 speed muncie soon and the V8 350 /th350 combo I just pulled out after I clean it up.

The 64 is safe, I just take my time moving stuff around it and can push it back for more room if needed.

No week off from work, just hitting it hard when I get home. Last night was a hard 4+ hours. I ate dinner at 9:30 or so.

The pace will slow down soon. I have other commitments that will take time away. I have to pull the interior to cut out trans tunnel for fitting the T56 transmission. Then the fun begins.

Lost in the 60s · President

Enganeer wrote:
The cramped space is semi-self induced. Once I start cleaning out some of my goodies for this conversion, more space will be available. I may unload my 67' 327 and 4 speed muncie soon and the V8 350 /th350 combo I just pulled out after I clean it up.

The 64 is safe, I just take my time moving stuff around it and can push it back for more room if needed.

No week off from work, just hitting it hard when I get home. Last night was a hard 4+ hours. I ate dinner at 9:30 or so.

The pace will slow down soon. I have other commitments that will take time away. I have to pull the interior to cut out trans tunnel for fitting the T56 transmission. Then the fun begins.
Oh, Oh, shoot me a PM about the Muncie...
No matter how big the space started out at, I always seem to pile enough other junk around a project to end up working in a couple of feet too...
The floor hacking is the biggest deterrent for me to consider the F-body trans swap. I'll wait till the better fitting ones come down some.

-- Edited by Lost in the 60s on Thursday 22nd of September 2011 10:19:47 AM

SShink · 3K+ Club

Lost in the 60s wrote:
The floor hacking is the biggest deterrent for me to consider the F-body trans swap. I'll wait till the better fitting ones come down some.

If you pick the Keisler 600 version, you'll be waiting until late next year... ask Kevin. I think the next size down for 500 hp is available much sooner.

dashboard · 2K+ Club

Kessler RS series transmissions are rated for input torque not HP. RS 400, 500, and 600 for respective torque values.

I ordered the RS 600, my engine is torque rated in the 500 ft lbs range. Kessler is experiencing production delays with the 600 so I switched my order to the 500. I’m looking forward to the gears 1=3.37, 2=1.99, 3=1.33, 4=1.00, 5=0.67 I might be able to keep my 3.08 rear gears.

No cutting required, it’s should be plug and play, or so they say. Mine should be here this time next month, I’m going to install it when it arrives so if your interested swing by and see the install.

http://www.keislerauto.com/Keisler_Auto/Keisler_Engineering.html

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Did a little more prep and started to clean. Frame cleaned up decent where I cleaned. I may skip sandblasting frame and just por it.

-- Edited by Enganeer on Thursday 22nd of September 2011 07:42:10 PM

bwild70ss396 · Active Member

I am liking this Ls interest!!! Only downside is they will be as belly button(everyone has one) as a 350/350 soon

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Stripped the front and firewall down and almost done with cleaning. I hope to have everything painted and fitting the LS1 and T56 by the end of the week.

Lost in the 60s · President

WOW, a little buff and shine on the firewall and call it good !!! I have NO CLUE what it would be like to work on a car that clean. Actually, I do, I had an '88 IROC from TX that I could crack a bolt loose with a wrench and then spin it out by hand, but nothing as old as the stuff we work on.

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Finally got the front part of the frame cleaned enough up for this weekend's project of painting. Afterwards onto the firewall.

Then to the tunnel of dirty grunge. My nose is already plugged up just looking at it. The car must have been running a intake manifold leak at the rear with all the oil.

SShink · 3K+ Club

Looks great John! Just think... all that grease could be called 'rust preventative'!

Enganeer · Mega Poster

A couple steps forward.

Scored a Jeep Grand Cherokee box from the u-pull for a whopping $21. It was a fresh replacement, not a speck of rust on it. Cleaned it up and repainted with a rattle can.

Frame and firewall painted though I will redo the frame. The primer must have been thick in some spots and I thought it was dry but reacted to the paint and wrinkled in little areas. Nothing terrible, just re-sand a give a light coat. I figure with trial fitting the engine / trans, I will be scuffing up the frame anyways.

This next week's goal, time to cut the tunnel.

67ss · 1K+ Club

John what did you use to get the frame that clean? Was it aircraft stripper or just lost of sanding.

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Just a few wire brushes and a drill. I used a large stiff wire brush for the open areas and smaller ones for the hard to get areas.

I found a neat trick to keep the brush working hard. When the brush start to slow in removing paint from going one direction (bristles will set a certain direction), I reversed the drill and the brush torn through the paint like mad. Reversed the drill again when removal started getting slow again. Repeat as needed. Eye protection is must as some wire bristles would break off. I would buy a cheap drill next time that I don't care about as my nice Dewalt was fithly afterwards.

I did used some paint thinner to wiped down the frame and it seemed to help some also for that extra clean and did soften up the paint.

I think aircraft stripper would have been faster but I had to get through the nasty grease and baked on dust layer plus I just did not want to deal with the caustic chemicals and neutralizing them or having stuff hide in the frame welding seams.

-- Edited by Enganeer on Monday 3rd of October 2011 09:38:44 AM

Chris R · 2K+ Club

Enganeer wrote:
Just a few wire brushes and a drill. I used a large stiff wire brush for the open areas and smaller ones for the hard to get areas.

I found a neat trick to keep the brush working hard. When the brush start to slow in removing paint from going one direction (bristles will set a certain direction), I reversed the drill and the brush torn through the paint like mad. Reversed the drill again when removal started getting slow again. Repeat as needed. Eye protection is must as some wire bristles would break off. I would buy a cheap drill next time that I don't care about as my nice Dewalt was fithly afterwards.

I did used some paint thinner to wiped down the frame and it seemed to help some also for that extra clean and did soften up the paint.

I think aircraft stripper would have been faster but I had to get through the nasty grease and baked on dust layer plus I just did not want to deal with the caustic chemicals and neutralizing them or having stuff hide in the frame welding seams.

-- Edited by Enganeer on Monday 3rd of October 2011 09:38:44 AM

This is exactly how I did my frame before I laid POR on it back in 98. I used wire wheels 5 inches in diameter that were rated higher then my electric drill could go. The wheels had around a 3/8 hole in the middle so I just put a bolt and nut with a few washers and the bolt was long enough to use as a stud for the chuck on the drill to clamp on to and it worked great. I have tons of air tools but I dont have an air compressor to work with so air tools werent an option, the electric drill worked great. However, my frame was about as clean as Johns. Now I am likely going to strip all that stuff off and powdercoat the entire frame.

John D · 2K+ Club

Yeah.... and just remember that he's working on an AZ/no rust/really nice/never usually seen in MN project... the cheater!!

(What's it like working on something where bolts & nuts actually un-screw?? )

Lost in the 60s · President

John D wrote:
Yeah.... and just remember that he's working on an AZ/no rust/really nice/never usually seen in MN project... the cheater!!

(What's it like working on something where bolts & nuts actually un-screw?? )
If I had used a wire brush on the frame that came under my GTO, I would have been left with a pile of dust... Your car is really clean...

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Cheater...? I served my dues on a 65' Camino parts car I bought awhile back. The only thing holding that 65' together was the bed. I sheared more bolts than loosened.

This a pleasant change to say the least.

Started stripping down the LS engine for painting. I don't know how but a mouse deposited about a half of cup of thistle seeds deep down between the intake and head.

Hope to have the engine cleaned enough for paint by mid week so I can swap the intake for an LS6 intake.

Derek69SS · Founding Member

Do you have the LS6 intake already? I have one to sell... need something bigger.

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Yep, I just brought down from storage for replacing the ls1.

Whatcha doing, fast 92?

-- Edited by Enganeer on Tuesday 4th of October 2011 08:13:53 PM

Derek69SS · Founding Member

Yup, that's the plan.

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Almost done doing a quick detailing of the LS engine.

Bonus is I was thinking I would have to do some internal notching in block for the LS6 valley cover for the pcv setup but the block is a 12560626 casting. No modification needed. Just bend the water line around the port and clearance the bottom of the intake manifold. Sweet!

Pretty nasty inside there. Hehe, looks like new.

SteveS · Super Poster

Nice and clean John . Very lucky not having to notch the block, I had to cut mine. I didn't have the oil cooler fittings either. How did your knock sensors look? My front one was a little corroded from water getting under the manifold. Have you seen the info on LS1tech about making a silicone "dam" around the knock sensor holes to keep water out?

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Front sensor looked like new.

Thanks for the tip.

I will look at ls1tech from the silicone dam trick and do that tonight along with repairing the front sensor wire. The wire was smashed completely flat between the manifold and cooling line to the point of being paper thin.

bowtie · Secretary

Looks great!

SShink · 3K+ Club

Looks great John!

Maybe I missed it down below in the post... but are you going to be able to use the oil pan that came with the engine? Or, are you using an F body pan as I've heard that will work with Chevelles front frame members?

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Stan,

The oil pan is a F-body pan.

SteveS · Super Poster

Here is GM's TSB on the silicone around the knock sensor:

http://www.jimfancher.com/sierra/p0332.htm

Enganeer · Mega Poster

I was just there after searching in google for the TBS 02-06-04-023. Thanks.

I would not have discarded the rear foam unless I read it. Makes sense to allow any water to run off rather than pool.

Seth · Contributor

Looks awesome!

Enganeer · Mega Poster

Dang that T-56 is big compared to my muncie!

Time to start cleaning the trans tunnel for cutting.

SShink · 3K+ Club

Enganeer wrote:
Stan,

The oil pan is a F-body pan.

John, I forgot you pulled your engine/trans from a Trans Am or Camaro.... duh!

I think if you convert a truck LS engine to a Chevelle you need to switch to the F body pan along with the sump pickup. Sound right?

Enganeer · Mega Poster

The truck pans will fit BUT that may have tie rod issues and they definatley extend too far down in the rear. When swapping pans, you have to match the sump pickups to the pan.

The link below shows many of the pan options out there.

\\http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/817787-lsx-oil-pans.html

-- Edited by Enganeer on Saturday 8th of October 2011 08:22:34 AM

Derek69SS · Founding Member

Stan, I have an F-body pan I'm not using if you want to try it first before buying.

SShink · 3K+ Club

Derek69SS wrote:
Stan, I have an F-body pan I'm not using if you want to try it first before buying.

Thanks Derek. If I pull the trigger on a swap I'll let you know.

Enganeer · Mega Poster

More progress this weekend.

Well, I am all in now.

ENGINE MOUNTS

Lesson learned - The trans dapt brackets required that I do a little grinding in the block for the bracket and some of the engine mount bolts for clearance.

Passenger side looking to the front

Driver side toward the front.

For the engine to frame mount bolts required grinding by the webbing...not much and then you can also add washers to the bolt to minimize the amount past the bracket.

Difference between trans dapt motor bracket than cam with the kit and Energy Suspension poly mount.

I mounted the Energy Suspension poly mount so I don't know how other one would sit engine wise. Probably lower and with the engine stands located in factory location. But the f-body alternator would not work with the steering gear box (more on that later)

Dropping Engine / Trans into car.

Lesson learned...T56 is big long box with a huge bell housing. The biggest issues were getting the oil pan past the crossmember before the transmission would catch on the firewall. If you come in high, the trans bell housing hits the firewall. You could only tilt the engine / trans so far until the back of the engine hits the firewall, just not enough for the oil pan to slip past the crossmember - close though. I needed to do an additional cut to the top of the firewall to get that extra clearance. On redo, I would separate the engine and trans. Drop the engine from above and then bring the trans from below and then join them together.

F-body alternator and Chevelle Steering gear box

Lesson learned. Even with 1" back offsets, I still had alternator to steering box issues. I slide the engine back even more to gain some clearance. So stock location, F-body alternator probably is going to not work.

HEADERS

Lesson learned. Pacesetter Long Tube (LT) F-body headers (p/n 72C2256) will fit with some tweaks.

Tweak 1 the passenger side number 4 tube is very close to the frame rail (virtually touching). I just shifted the back of the transmission from pointing straight back and centered to about a half an inch offset to the driver’s side and pivoted the engine stands to rotate the engine ever so slightly. OR use a BFH...but I like those nice headers for now... I did not want to start man handling the headers yet. I may be able to push the header in toward the center for more clearance or tweak just the number 4 tube.

Tweak / Fix The driver’s side header hits the rubber oil cooler line. So I will remove it and it made the oil filter hang down lower that I would like. I think I may look at some early 90's S10s in the U-pull yard as they have a remote filter setup for 4.3L and then to a cooler.

Possible tweak. The driver’s side header is very close to the steering column bar. I need to remove the oil cooler line first, so the header sits as it should before I can tell if this will need to be tweaked.

Observation – The driver’s side header does point out at an angle, not straight back. From research, this was a known issue. I’ll try and get a better pic later…nasty speedo, e-brake and brake line were in the way.

Overall not bad for headers imho. The driver side has plenty of room (with the exception of the steering column) I could probably move forward about an inch or so and just clear the crossmember.

Engine oil pan clearance

With the Energy Suspension poly mounts, the engine sits high enough that the oil pan is even with the crossmember. I have about a 3 degree tilt down in relation to the frame, so I think my angle is good. I think making skid plate to bolt on to the bottom of the crossbar is in order as the oil drain plug area is just below.

-- Edited by Enganeer on Sunday 9th of October 2011 01:06:45 PM

bowtie · Secretary

Look into a Impala SS accessory setup. Since those engines have to fit into a front wheel drive setup, they might be more appropriately sized/spaced for you.

SShink · 3K+ Club

I'm sure Steve S. will jump in on this, but when we looked at his install last Sat., there seemed to be about 3/16" clearance between the steering box and the alternator. That seemed to be the tightest spot.

Thanks for the thorough documentation and pics. I'm following with great interest, as I'm sure others are as well.

Lost in the 60s · President

On the oil cooler hose, try replacing the straight fitting with a 22 1/2 or 45° fitting to point the hose up and in toward the block to get it away from the header.

On the alternator issues, I am including a pic of a Camaro conversion I did with rack and pinion. You can just see the alt behind the upper rad hose. I used a relocation kit from Speedway that moved the alt and PS pump up high to allow room for the steering shaft to access the r&p. That would eliminate your steering box clearance issues as well.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/LS1-Vortec-High-Mount-P-S-and-Alternator-Mount-Bracket,42493.html

-- Edited by Lost in the 60s on Sunday 9th of October 2011 05:36:49 PM